Modern Vespa

No - not mad, but wondering about the behavior. Why do some people feel compeled to endulge in this very risky behavior.

It is easy to label, but harder to diagnois or reason out the motivations.

I have been re-reading this book and was thinking about riding/trying to be or act cool/and risk. I think the book is very applicable to the situation.

Is it an easy read or is it for the truly enlightened ?

Bill X

Obvi ur problem is too much book reading and not enough ass kick'n!

and remember, most risk takers are that way from birth, it's not like that dude that dumped you and your boyfriend just read a book about taking risks, and decided to go outside and take one. Risk taking is a leaned ability, the more u do it the more level headed u can b while doin it. That dude probably thought nothing of dumping your little group, he probably accelerates like that every time he rides, he might have years of experience slotting even tighter gaps than the one between you and your lover... He could maybe do that 1000 times and never come close to biffing, while someone who never pushes the limits would crash the first time they tried it. He was just rude, not necessarily reckless. As an open risk taker myself, i gotta say it sounded like fun doing what he did to you and your boytoy, pwning n00bs is always entertaining, especially when they get mad about it!

Let me put it in another way yet again:

You like book.

It good.

(grunt, scratch)

It good like female.

You want to take to bed all night.

But better than female.

Can buy book cheap.

Female for you cost plenty!

"Look, it's my duty as a knight to sample as much peril as I can." - Sir Galahad

so u like porno,
and me like real thing,
but we both agree about all night fling?

You can't see mine either.

GENIE here's Darius. He eats 12 carrots a day, 2 cabbages plus some other stuff. He's still growing You could make a lot of money if you sold his poop. Great natural fertilizer. I think the kid is smaller MARK he could probably ride a MP3 without any difficulty

I think it pretty clear that humans, particularly expendable males, take risks in order to get greater rewards. Hunting is a good example of this, much easier to grow carrots... (well except if a 42 lbs bunny tries to use you as a chew toy!)


Or to put it more poetically: Fortune favors the bold.

Just always remember Acting Cool, is never ever actually being Cool. Not ever.

If I had pot big enough for that bunny I would be cool.....

For that would mean I would have a pot big enough to brew beer...

And thats always cool.

IMHO.

R

8)

12 giant b rabbits were sent to N. Korea to help feed the population.... Unfortunately the leader of said country allegedly ate them.

Considering my Echo weighs 2375lbs (according to my last smog cert), and is a very lightweight car in this day and age, you need to slap about 1500lbs more on that figure to get a good average for passenger cars (not trucks/SUVs... add about 4000lbs extra, at a minimum).

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Obviously, it's difficult to ethically conduct controlled experiments when there is real, significant physical (or psychological) risk involved. Thus, all that can be done is try to learn via interview and after the fact investigation why people who take risks do so. Obviously in mishap investigation, we were looking to see why people took unnecessary risk in an effort to educate others to avoid same.

Keep in mind that for the typical person, risk is a perceptual, not actual issue. Thus, successfully taking a given curve "cautioned" to 40 mph at 70 mph a few times can lead one to perceive that he or she is capable of taking all 40 mph curves at 70. Is such a person trying to be "cool" or just a victim of their own assumptions? As I posted previously, we found than in many mishaps involving unauthorized maneuvers the operator said, "I don't understand. It never went wrong when I did it before." Obviously, repeated "success" led to a low perceived risk.

Next, there is peer pressure, need for acceptance and desire for stature. While the mantra of "ride your own ride" is touted in PTW circles, how often do we also hear more "experienced" riders openly discussing how so and so is far too slow or cautious to ride in their group. What effect does this have on the listener? Does it motivate elevated risk acceptance beyond "their own ride"? We often found in mishap investigations that operators did things they personally felt (and properly so) were unsafe because others did it, and they wanted to be seen as being of at least equal stature.

To me, the ultimate experiment would be to measure risk seeking and/or acceptance where there is no potential of an audience of any sort - before, during or after the fact. Obviously, this would be difficult, if not impossible to do. It is known that observation can influence subjects in experiments, just as it does in "real life". And, as I said before, it would be unethical to place subjects at peril.

Consequently, our efforts in aviation and ground safety were to influence attitudes (and thereby behavior) to minimize human factors mishaps. Education and awareness, based on actual facts were key tools. We knew the physical limitations of the equipment and the physical limitations of people and set operating parameters accordingly.

One attitude that was not fostered nor tolerated was, "Combat aviation is inherently risky business. If you aren't willing to take risks, you shouldn't be flying". Not because we weren't in a risk filled business, but because mission completion was the goal, not risk seeking. Unnecessary risk was not something we wished to reward, especially when it contributes nothing to getting the job done and actually reduces mission capability when lives and equipment are lost. It can be a fine line, but when you deal with it for a living, it becomes more and more obvious.

Famous last words: "Hey guys, watch this!"

MY BF says risk taking is like a drug. The more you do it, the more you have to push the envelope to achieve the same rush.

It's like drugs, you start off small and need more and more.

He said it is a lack of discipline when you don't recognize that you should stop.

The other interesting psychology is that of increased status in the group. The more stunts that are pulled off, the greater you perceive your status.

This type of stunting, on the road, and not in a safe environment does not accrue any status with me.

I am not impressed, only appalled and saddened that some people take life so cheaply, as to play games with their own and others.

In fact, I consider these type of riders as any other road hazard. They are to be avoided. This attitude is impacted by age. Older folks know how dangerous that type of behavior is because we have seen the outcome, while younger folks, think it is, "Awesome!" because they are without fear of bodily injury at this point in their lives. This helps to perpetuate the behavior.

Or... everybody could just lighten up. I'm just jealous because I can't wheelie

In the absence of hard facts, generalise!

A lot of it is testosterone poisoning. I have never seen a woman do a wheelie anywhere under any conditions. Doing 80 on the interstate on one wheel splitting traffic requires skill, but nothing any reasonably proficient rider can't learn to do. A lot of risk taking is young male behavior. If there were no young males available there would be no Army or war. In my experience women who participate in risky pursuits do it with more thought and calculation and are more successful. When you give instruction to a mixed group of young men and women for a risky activity the women pay closer attention while the young men just want to jump on and go.

And Aviator 47 was dead on with ,"It worked last time I did it." I went through basic O course at Ft. Sam with a Medal of Honor recipient. He said the incident that was recognized was no different from what he had done several times before, and ,"It always worked before." He went from being a happy and proficient Sp5 medic to a miserable and useless 2Lt.

Thing is, you need an appreciative audience to be "cool", the dude at the lights last week who did a wheelie left the same word on all who witnessed it lips and it rhymed with Brick from what I could make out. The sort of edgy riding being discussed is enjoyable to the rider...being cool is a whole other thread. ( No I don't profess to be it either).

Well this woman can and does do wheelies - but not to impress anyone else.

Plus don't be too tough on the young men. Generally their lot in the army is to be ordered around by older men who know the risks but are content to let the young bucks take them instead. You decide which is worse - being a young idiot or being a cynical old dude who lets them take the heat! It might be better if the old guys did the fighting - less wars this way?

The old guys in uniform do not get to choose war or not. It's the guys in the Saville Row suits or similarly attired women that make those decisions. At least in both our countries. And, as you well know, many of us old guys led young bucks into battle rather than simply "send" them.

Hope you totally terrified the living shite out of those lying bastards, Kate.

Atta girl.

I have to agree to differ with you Al because I've met many officers who look the other way when it suits - and politicians make decisions to suit themselves. I would love a day when all these people had to pick up a gun and take the orders that they give out. Then they would know the responsibility given to the young.

We all know people significantly above the age of majority who drink, use a mobile while driving, smoke or do any other number of distracting things while driving. Some older people have medical conditions that should rule them out of driving altogether but they ignore that too. A wheelie is the least of it. It is probably something the young do more than older people but lets not say its all young men who do all stupid things. Stupidity is ageless and classless. Experience is nothing unless you draw a conclusion from it.

There is too much kvetching about young men.

Testosterone has a lot to do with it. It's mostly men who do these stupid things: it's all about mating. In many species, males who want to mate have to display themselves to attract the attention of females and increase their status with other males. That's where the idiot showoff behaviour in human males comes from. And that's why peacocks have those huge gorgeous useless tails.

When I was learning to fly aeroplanes, my theory instructor told me that there are big differences in the accident rates of male and female pilots. The accident rate of females is 1/10th the rate of males. Why? He said:

* Women are more safety oriented and more scrupulous about safety procedures than men
* Women don't get their ego's mixed up in their flying and men do
* Women don't want to have machismo
* Women are more likely than men to deliberately over-qualify themselves for their flying. If her flights require a certain level of skills, she is likely to train to a higher level of skills, meaning that she has higher skills available when an emergency occurs.

I've often seen riders -- always male -- doing stupid things on bikes and scooters. My theory instructory would say they had good physical skills and poor command judgement.

Their problem is that physical skills are not enough for survival, and they don't know it. Physical skills are important, but command judgement is essential. Poor decisions can kill, even more easily than lack of skills can kill.

hang on a sec. risk-taking may go hand in hand with testosterone but the latter is not an absolute requirement and i'm not sure i agree with the idea being thrown around in this thread that taking risks is stupid, irresponsible behaviour, full stop. of course it's dumb if you put the lives of other people at risk through your own actions - but in other contexts risk-taking can be a wonderful thing.

sometimes i like to ride my scooter a 'bit' faster than i should. i like to go downhill skiing - and i often hit speeds on skis that some people are afraid to reach on their scooters. i've been cliff-diving, abseiling, skydiving, body-surfing, white-water rafting, etc. etc. etc. because it's fun. the fact that i wear proper equipment and observe appropriate safety precautions may mitigate the risks somewhat but it doesn't eliminate them. i'd far rather take risks in life, and learn a little about myself through doing it, than live out my whole existence in a cocoon of safety, wondering what adrenaline tastes like.

I agree with the dude with a helicopter avatar- I used to b a professional freestyle skier, I quit because i knew deep down it was never anything more than showing off, and if no one was watching or going to be watching, i know for a fact i wouldn't be taking the risks (maybe i would still ski powder). In fact, i would go so far as to pretend- in a weird subconscious way- that someone was watching when i was stuck without an audience. Maybe other people who have shown off for a living did it for themselves and "the rush", but the physical rush slowly starts to play second fiddle to the social one.

I'm only 25, but i did a year of serious buddhism and meditation after quitting skiing (lived like a monk for a year). As my concentration increased and my compulsions slowed and became more evident, it was amazing how many aspects of my life and personality I found to be based on creating an image that other people would see. I guess that's just how we are, being the most social of all primates, it's genetic. I've also noticed, that testosterone really does play a huge role in blinding men. The higher my T gets, the less i give a shit about anything, i'm not kidding- there's definitely some real science behind that kinda stuff.

Yeah I still like to ride fast.

Bill X

In the time it took me to hunt and peck type my last comment, other people already mentioned and commented on testosterone, so thats pretty much a science democracy right there that its true. Take some testosterone supplements and tell me you don't give less of a shit about anything!!
I've dated some chicks with high T and they were big risk takers too (also fun for other reasons, so try it yurself)

I'd rather be a Patrick Star than a Squidward.

It's interesting. I've read this thread, considered and digested it and have decided that riding the scooter is probably risk enough. I DO get a buzz and a feeling of elation from doing some of the stuff mentioned on here. I still not convinced that it is entirely sensible. I'm still procrstinating. One side of me WANTS to do it the other side is saying, "Hang on a moment." I'm really not sure I want to push it any more, despite the feeling of elation that comes with going around a corner slightly faster than before. The company of others and having time to look around is almost enough for me....

Ask me again tomorrow.

i'll ask you again at the weekend, when bill leads his 'progressive' ride through the back roads of kent

MilliniumFalcon: does the fact that i enjoy risk-taking mean I have high testosterone? i'm not sure i like that idea i don't think a 'tache would suit me.

As long as it was one that you could twirl the ends like Dick Dastardly did I'd be happy.

Talking of which our receptionist has a pair of enhanced breasts but she also has a faint moustache.

Priorities girl, priorities.

Bil X

That will be slightly difficult as I will be in Belfast.

oh boo

genie-

In all of life, there is inherent risk, and elevated risk. By "observing appropriate safety precautions" you tilt more towards inherent. Would you consider a skiing contest on advanced slopes where the objective is to see who could ski with their bindings set the loosest? Or a jump where the objective was to see who could deploy their canopy at the lowest altitude below 250 feet? 500 ft?

The fallacy arises when one comes to the conclusion that inherent risk provides license or incentive to accept or create elevated risk. Even more so when operating a vehicle on public roads, as engaging in elevated risk can imperil others with whom one shares the road.

Yes, skydiving is risky. Been there, done that. In the U.S. the odds of a fatality in 17 jumps per year is about the same as driving 10,000 miles in a car in a year.

I posted a while back about reading a post on a motorcycle forum where a fellow said that he has been trying to negotiate a given curve on a public road at a specific high rate of speed, and had, as of that posting, failed to do so on all four attempts. Each attempt resulted in a spill, two of which required medical attention. But he planned to continue to pursue his goal. How would you classify that?

Enjoying a thrill packed sport with a higher level of risk than walking down the street is not questionable. Elevating that risk can be questionable. Expanding that risk to others on the road, without their consent, definitely is questionable.

I just like riding fast - within the legal parameters of course.

Ding.

Bill X

Just how do you have fun riding within the legal parameters? If you are not breaking the rules are you REALLY riding FAST?