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So. The owner's manual and workshop manual say to do it every 2 years. I've seen many posts here about people doing it.
But, my question is why? It's a sealed system, isn't it? If so, no moisture should get in unless you open it. I've never heard of changing it, nor had it done on any of my cars or trucks in over 45 years of driving.
I've never had a PTW with hydraulic brakes before, so maybe I'm missing something.
I really don't mind doing it, but am just wondering, "What's the point?"
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Re: Brake fluid change ??
danny*h wrote:
So. The owner's manual and workshop manual say to do it every 2 years. I've seen many posts here about people doing it.
But, my question is why? It's a sealed system, isn't it? If so, no moisture should get in unless you open it. I've never heard of changing it, nor had it done on any of my cars or trucks in over 45 years of driving.
I've never had a PTW with hydraulic brakes before, so maybe I'm missing something.
I really don't mind doing it, but am just wondering, "What's the point?"
You aren't following your service manuals for the cars and trucks you own then. All of them recommend changing the fluid. Rubber hoses, seals, etc are all pourus - nothing is completely "sealed."

Even though it is sealed you still get moisture contamination - which means the boiling point is reduced drastically, which means you are liable to have your brakes fail.
Quote:
After only a year of service, the brake fluid in the average vehicle may contain as much as two percent water. After 18 months, the level of contamination can be as high as three percent. And after several years of service, it is not unusual to find brake fluid that contains as much as seven to eight percent water.
Quote:
As the concentration of moisture increases, it causes a sharp drop in the fluid's boiling temperature. Brand new DOT 3 brake fluid must have a dry (no moisture) boiling point of at least 401 degrees F, and a wet (moisture-saturated) boiling point of no less than 284 degrees. Most new DOT 3 fluids exceed these requirements and have a dry boiling point that ranges from 460 degrees up to over 500 degrees.

Only one percent water in the fluid can lower the boiling point of a typical DOT 3 fluid to 369 degrees. Two percent water can push the boiling point down to around 320 degrees, and three percent will take it all the way down to 293 degrees, which is getting dangerously close to the minimum DOT and OEM requirements.

DOT 4 fluid, which has a higher minimum boiling temperature requirement (446 degrees F dry and 311 degrees wet) soaks up moisture at a slower rate but suffers an even sharper drop in boiling temperature as moisture accumulates. Three percent water will lower the boiling point as much as 50%
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If your fluid hasn't been changed in a couple of years, remove the top of one of the resevoirs and you probably see brake fluid that is a dark color vs the clear color that it would be when it comes from the bottle. It gets dirty from brake usage, heat and moisture that is formed from the heating and cooling of the fluid when you use the brakes. Eventually, dirty fluid can get gummy and clog the lines as well as the other parts of the braking system. Same thing in an automobile.
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DANNY even tho it's sealed the old stuff when you change it is darker than the new stuff. Not a lot but noticeable. I thought the same thing and had mine done at about 2 1/2 years. I don't know if it's really all that important but it takes a few minutes and not having brakes isn't a good thing I live in a humid environment so who knows if moisture can get in. Also i don't know if "old" brake fluid does anything to the brakes lines, like degrade them faster but better to do the change IMHO.
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Danny, you are absolutely correct. Changing brake fluid as often as the manufacturers recommend is pure overkill. Now if I had a car with an expensive ABS/ESP unit that could be susceptible to moisture, I might think again. Unless you are intending to cook your brakes, I really wouldn't worry. This is just my opinion.
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There's some suggestion that moisture in the system can lead to long term master cylinder or brake calliper corrosion -
http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-technical-articles/bleeding-motorcycle-brakes/bleeding-motorcycle-brakes.htm
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Harvey wrote:
There's some suggestion that moisture in the system can lead to long term master cylinder or brake calliper corrosion -
http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-technical-articles/bleeding-motorcycle-brakes/bleeding-motorcycle-brakes.htm
Agreed, but have you ever seen or heard of this? Just interested.
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Doug, I have personally seen brake calipers on motorcycles that were really screwed up (on the inside) from corrosion due to not changing brake fluid at least every two to three years.
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I have seen nasty calipers, but usually they weren't that young!

I, like Danny, am willing to be re-educated.
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DougL wrote:
Harvey wrote:
There's some suggestion that moisture in the system can lead to long term master cylinder or brake calliper corrosion -
http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-technical-articles/bleeding-motorcycle-brakes/bleeding-motorcycle-brakes.htm
Agreed, but have you ever seen or heard of this? Just interested.
No, I personally haven't. I suspect it might become an issue for those fortunate few scooters that make it into their teens, but not much sooner than that.
There have been a couple reports on MV about seized callipers:
Check the front caliper before it seizes?
BV 500 Brake Squeal
Front Brake Calipers on a GT200L

I also came across references to the bleed nipples seizing due to non-use
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DougL wrote:
I have seen nasty calipers, but usually they weren't that young!

I, like Danny, am willing to be re-educated.
The youngest one that I ever saw was on a BMW that was about seven years old: the fluid hadn't been changed in around four years. It was a bike that a friend bought and the front calipers were completely bound up. I helped him take them apart and they were pretty gnarly. The bike may have sat outside a lot before he bought it (I don't really know) but the calipers looked okay on the outside but were beyond rebuilding due to all of the corrosion on the inside. He had to buy a set of used Brembos from a wrecked bike to replace them. It was definitely due to moisture in the brake fluid. I change the fluid in all of my vehicles every two to two and half years. Better safe than sorry.
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Yeah. I think I might just get around to it in somewhere around the 3 year mark. The cage will get it done on time.
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XLR8 wrote:
DougL wrote:
I have seen nasty calipers, but usually they weren't that young!

I, like Danny, am willing to be re-educated.
The youngest one that I ever saw was on a BMW that was about seven years old: the fluid hadn't been changed in around four years. It was a bike that a friend bought and the front calipers were completely bound up. I helped him take them apart and they were pretty gnarly. The bike may have sat outside a lot before he bought it (I don't really know) but the calipers looked okay on the outside but were beyond rebuilding due to all of the corrosion on the inside. He had to buy a set of used Brembos from a wrecked bike to replace them. It was definitely due to moisture in the brake fluid. I change the fluid in all of my vehicles every two to two and half years. Better safe than sorry.
yup I too have seen calipers frozen and rusted from the inside as well. sometimes the pistons can be cleaned and made to work again but 90% of the time replacement is neccessary.
there is no worse feeling when going to pull hard on your brakes and they decide to fail at that moment, You are totally helpless. Just like Clint Eastwood said "do you feel lucky"
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OK, here's another for you. I have a new, never ridden MP3 which is two years old. Shall I change the fluid? Razz emoticon
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DougL wrote:
OK, here's another for you. I have a new, never ridden MP3 which is two years old. Shall I change the fluid? Razz emoticon
Depends on the color and consistency of the fluid.
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Pale, straw-coloured, no cloudiness. Does hygorscopic fluid change colour with water absorption?
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DougL wrote:
Pale, straw-coloured, no cloudiness. Does hygorscopic fluid change colour with water absorption?
Yep..........first it turns brownish and then more of a gray-black color as it gets worse.

Yours sounds like it can probably wait another year but I wouldn't go beyond that. Chances are (even if it sits without being ridden for another year) that it will start changing color and since it's not being ridden, moisture in the lines could possibly be causing some corrosion in the calipers while it's sitting and not being circulated.
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As brake fluid is hydroscopic you should change it every 2 years regardless of mileage, as its time that does the harm not mileage...

In ABS systems, corrosion can be a bigger problem as the water content in the oil can screw about with the valves and pumps... in normal systems corrosion isnt a major problem, and it takes years to do the harm, its just the huge reduction in brake fluid boiling point thats the problem... the worst thing is you dont really feel the change, but one day youll be braking, the heat will boil the fluid in the caliper and without warning the lever will go soft and pull into the bar in an instant...

For the 5mins it takes, just change it every 2 years...
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DougL wrote:
Harvey wrote:
There's some suggestion that moisture in the system can lead to long term master cylinder or brake calliper corrosion -
http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-technical-articles/bleeding-motorcycle-brakes/bleeding-motorcycle-brakes.htm
Agreed, but have you ever seen or heard of this? Just interested.
Yep, have seen moister cause all kinds of brake problems, from locked up calipers too rusted out metal brake lines that rusted all the way through. Wha? emoticon

And the worst one you get no warning, you hit the brakes hard, moister in fluid boils, turns to steam and your brakes give completely out. Steam doesn't compress like a fluid.
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StooterBoy wrote:
Steam doesn't compress like a fluid.
The whole point is that gases do compress, where as liquids don't. I too have seen corroded brake lines, but that is usually from the outside. Let's get it straight, I am not disagreeing with anyone in particular, just interested in opinions.
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I have a relatively inexpensive device that measures the water content in brake fluid and test it once/year. Here in sunny southern Kalifornia with fairly low humidity 4 to 5 years is the norm between changes. With 7 cars and 2 scooters every two years would be way to expensive.

On the other hand, when I was racing 2 of the cars, the fluid would get changed many times per year because even a very small amount of moisture can cause major problems (loss of braking) as the fluid heats up to extreme temperatures.
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If you think changing the brake fluid every two years is overkill, what do you make of the Haynes Manual suggestion that the front brake hose on an ET4 must be changed every three years? I've seen similar rubber brake hoses on cars last for 20 years without problems, I appreciate the ET4 hose is longer and perhaps flexes a little more, but still....
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DougL wrote:
StooterBoy wrote:
Steam doesn't compress like a fluid.
The whole point is that gases do compress, where as liquids don't. I too have seen corroded brake lines, but that is usually from the outside. Let's get it straight, I am not disagreeing with anyone in particular, just interested in opinions.
I have seen brake line rusted from the inside out, the outside of the line was still metal no rust at all.
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Thanks, everyone, for all the insight. I'm still not totally convinced that it's necessary, but I went and bought a bottle of DOT4 and a couple feet of 1/4" clear tubing today.
I figure it sure won't hurt anything and it doesn't really cost much.
Now I just need to find one of those "round tuits."
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danny*h wrote:
Thanks, everyone, for all the insight. I'm still not totally convinced that it's necessary, but I went and bought a bottle of DOT4 and a couple feet of 1/4" clear tubing today.
I figure it sure won't hurt anything and it doesn't really cost much.
Now I just need to find one of those "round tuits."
I'm going t follow cheekythomas advise....
What is the volume of the system, couldn't find it in the manual. Is DOT 5 ok? It is said to be hydrophobic.
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danny*h wrote:
Thanks, everyone, for all the insight. I'm still not totally convinced that it's necessary, but I went and bought a bottle of DOT4 and a couple feet of 1/4" clear tubing today.
I figure it sure won't hurt anything and it doesn't really cost much.
Now I just need to find one of those "round tuits."
hee you can borrow one of mine
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louisq wrote:
danny*h wrote:
Thanks, everyone, for all the insight. I'm still not totally convinced that it's necessary, but I went and bought a bottle of DOT4 and a couple feet of 1/4" clear tubing today.
I figure it sure won't hurt anything and it doesn't really cost much.
Now I just need to find one of those "round tuits."
I'm going t follow cheekythomas advise....
What is the volume of the system, couldn't find it in the manual. Is DOT 5 ok? It is said to be hydrophobic.
only use dot 5 in a dot 5 system. it does mix with dot 4. I am pretty sure vespa/piaggio only uses dot 4. Very few systems use the dot 5 mostly racing systems and the like.
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Got it! Not interested in a system flush!!
Volume of system?
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The volume is probably a certain quntity - but some is always, always spilt, so what that quantity is is largely irrelevant.

I only change brake fluid if the colour has darkened considerably. This can be in 12 months or five years - depends on usage and conditions.
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jimc wrote:
The volume is probably a certain quntity - but some is always, always spilt, so what that quantity is is largely irrelevant.

I only change brake fluid if the colour has darkened considerably. This can be in 12 months or five years - depends on usage and conditions.
Thanks, but it would seem relevant if I didn't have enough to complete the purge? Considering the scoot here will be totally idle for at least two months I thought I'd go ahead and do all fluids (except hub) maintenance before I put it up. It's been 6 weeks of 90/32 temps with 70-94% humidity. Fluid does look closer to dark than new. Coolant is +3 years and winters low here was -25/-31 last winter.

Thanks!
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Just buy a small bottle of DOT4 from any auto parts store. It will be more than enough to do the front and rear brakes.
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XLR8 wrote:
Just buy a small bottle of DOT4 from any auto parts store. It will be more than enough to do the front and rear brakes.
Great, I'm set, thanks!
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One bottle of brake fluid will be plenty to replace both brakes' fluid.

It helps to have the "other" color fluid, to see when it has completely replaced the old. Both our GTSs had yellow fluid, so blue would be the order.

FWIW, here is how I did it.
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Tausend Dank!
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Mr Q,

I just rebuilt a rear caliper on one of my cars back in the Spring, and 1 bottle of DOT 3 was enough to flush the fluid at all 4 corners once the rebuild was complete. The key for me was color change of the old fluid coming out being replaced with new going in. The nice thing about bleeding brakes is that you can't do it too much (unless you drain the reservoir, and then yes, you just did it too much). In the absence of that screw-up, though, wasting fluid by over-flushing is just that - it's not like overfilling a crankcase or something - and you're only out the few bucks you spent on the DOT 4. The upside is piece of mind that your circuit is well-flushed and full of brand-spankin'-new stuff.
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OK. I did it tonight. Here's my post in another thread.

Another Scooter Girl Video: LX150 Brake Fluid Change (Post 995490)

Thanks for everyone's input.

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