Modern Vespa

i'm thinking no because there is less rubber in contact with the tarmac, but i could be wrong. for example do racebikes corner faster than racecars?

Depends on the bike, and depends on the car

The 4 wheels on the ground do help a lot, as I've found when chasing sports bikes. On the flat and straight they're gone...

...on the narrow and twisty I'm right back on them

I would have thought bikes because a bike can lean into a corner and a car can't and that results in the car being thrown out of a corner if it takes it too fast also it would depend on the length and angle of the corner and road conditions in the wet I would put money on a car because of the amount of rubber on the road.

Aye, you can go too fast into a corner in a car, granted. No amount of leaning will help you on a bike either if you've piled too fast into the bend...

Slow in, fast out

OK so it's all about centrifugal force..the car due to its mass will have more outswinging force than a bike, but then there is also the option of shifting body weight and leaning for riders which counters the centrifugal force even more. so we can take the sum of the centrifugal forces and multiply this by the contact area of the tyre giving us a grip coefficient..i see

I doubt even a super racing-bike could withstand 5g's in a bend as F1 cars are alleged to.

Speaking potentially. Cars are faster in corners. Lean angle is not an issue and tire footprint is greater. Cars can use aerodynamic aids to increase down-force. Cars can slide. There were tests done comparing cornering speeds of (street registrable) race cars and race bikes. The bikes accelerate harder and the lap times even out.

I think it's fair to say that some cars will be faster than some bikes and some bikes will be faster than some cars. It's all relative, Valantio rossi will be faster on his race bike than mr smith down the road in his ford fiesta and lewis hamilton in his F1 car will be faster than me on my GTS 300.

I know the GTS is pretty quick for a scooter, but you wouldn't need Lewis Hamilton or an F1 car to outpace it on the road Someone with a smidge of ability and a moderately ok car - something like a Renault Twingo GT - should be able to do the job

it was a general question really..sort of asking which is more effective in cornering, 2 or 4 wheel vehicles? or even 3 wheel for those with mp3's and the like.

V8 supercars series in Australia shares track with a number of motorcycle race classes. (as I am sure is the case in most countries)

These cars are highly modified but large V8 4 door sedans. They go around corners at considerably higher speeds than a superbike class 1000cc race configuration motorcycle can manage. And a V8 supercar is not a patch on an F1 car which would eat a V8 supercar for breakfast and still want desert.

Bikes rock in acceleration and braking but will not out corner a race car or a good sports car on the road.

By the way the overall lap times end up being comparable between V8 Supercars and superbikes.

And also by the way are you amazed at the lean angle Rossi and Stoner and co get? They are almost riding on the rim. The latest Moto Gp had a stabilised camera on Rossis bike (I think) For the first time the camera stayed upright while the bike leaned over. It was a whole amazing new perspective. These guys have big cajonnes.

Also is 5 gs the real sideways G in F1? Because that is on the verge of blackout for a normal human I think. They are supermen no doubt.

Simple answer is - no. vehicles have a larger contact patch.

Aerodynamics play a large role in your question. Cars can employ aerodynamic aids to traction. Your acceleration is normal force on your tires times the coeffecient of static friction between rubber and pavement. Using air pressure (underbody+diffusers and wings) to push down increases normal force w/o increasing mass. As a result a corner that you would not be able to take at 90mph, you can take at 160mph.

If you are taking edge of the envelope for aero cars to bikes, the aero equipped car will smoke the bike (F1 car to GP bike). If you are talking plateable for the street aero cars to bikes it should be close (Radical V-8 VS Aprilia RSV4 WSBK replica).

One factor is that a non aero car is something most people can get to 90% of the performance of, very few people can get to the edge of the envelope for an car with downforce and very few people can get to the edge of the envelope on a bike.

Once upon a time, yes.

Now cars have better tires, better suspensions, electronic VDC, ESC etc.

So in 2010 -- no.

P.

OK, so take my GTS 300, and my friend's citroen C3 base model. going through some twisties she smoked me...we weren't racing so I wasn't trying hard, but it seemed to me driving in our comfort zones, the car was faster. it could be my lame riding skills I dunno. has anyone compared their scoots against average cars? i'm sure the answer is yes..what were your findings?

No they don't, not even close.
There are quite a few tracks that are used for Moto GP as well as various 4 wheeled forms of motorsport and the bike lap records are always slower.

It probably is your skills, or lack of them. Were you scraping your floorboards and centerstand? If not you weren't pushing your scoot. That's fine - you don't have to, but there is a huge difference between riding, riding well, riding very well, and being at race caliber.

If you've ever seen GP races you know what bikes can do - those guys are sliding their knees and elbows on the ground - and that's just cornering - any street bike can do that if the suspension is properly set up and the rider has the skill. Can it do it as fast? No, because it's not modified like a GP bike, but the ergonomics are the same. The geometry is mostly the same, etc.

Average car, average scooter? Car will smoke in the corners if the driver knows what they're doing. Average car, average GXR? Car will still smoke in the corners if they know what they're doing.

A car has four contact points with the ground - the cycle has two. What happens when a car gets sideways in a corner? he's drifting. What happens when a motorcycle gets sideways in a corner? he's dying.

A motorcycle can brake later and accellerate faster and in a closed course that allows them to close the lap times to meet those of the car, but the car wins hands down in the corners.

http://www.youtube.com/user/pantagrulion#p/a/u/0/S6HRDChdC_w

Just looked at the Sepang circuit - 1m34 for F1 and about 2m for MotoGP

The GTS handles well however I agree with you. In this case the GT3 RS (hey that has "GTS" in it) certainly handles better in the twisties



Best,
SDG

Simple answer is they are equal:

The friction force of the tires does not depend on contact patch size it only depends on the normal force (ie the weight of the vehicle). The centrifugal force on the vehicle also depends on it's weight (well, mass really).

The end result is that the mass of the vehicle drops out and the only difference is down to the coefficient of friction of the tires.

But some are more equal than others:

What contact patch, steering geometry... gives you is predictability and control.

Cars (a vary few) can also generate aerodynamic down force adding to the normal force and increasing the friction force of the tires. Because the centrifugal force is still only based on the weight, this allows harder cornering at high speeds.

Motorcycles lean into a turn so the center of mass is balanced between the friction forces and centrifugal forces. This allows the motorcycle to corner at speeds up to the limit of traction. A car is dependent on the weight distribution and if the center of gravity is ever higher than the vector of the friction force and centrifugal force the car will flip. One more reason I will never understand the SUV thing.

ps. there's not really any centrifugal force, but taking the frame of reference of the vehicle and adding it in transforms the problem from dynamics to statics.

That Porker is just the thing to go chasing superbikes round the twisties...I'd love to

The show Fifth Gear (Top Gear knock off) has done this a couple of times. They raced a 999R against a Gallardo, then updated it with a 1098r with a Superlegerra. The car always won the traction game (cornering/braking) but the bike always out-accellerated. Both races were close, but I believe the Ducatis edged it out both times.

not faster than kitt

Basically a race car for the street. I prefer it to the GT2, may be a bit slower in a straight but has that wicked exhaust howl that is not muffled by turbos.

Awesome car.

Anyway, Sportrider tested the BMW M3 vs the BMW S1000RR a few months ago on a racetrack and the bike smoked the car.

But, on public roads you do not have the safety margin that a bike needs to do this. On a racetrack things like water or gravel in corners are not a concern so you can go flat out. On public roads, a car can hit gravel and be ok. A bike - chances are things will be different.

the bike is faster in this vid, i think the rider was slowing down and not using the power band of the R1