Modern Vespa

Pretty cool stuff

jealous!

Heh. Looks kind of familiar. A friend and shopmate of mine has been working on his electric Vespa on and off for a few years. It's based on a basic 150 Super.

Electric 150 Super

Very cool, Jess. How fast and far does it go?

Pretty much as fast as you want it to. Possibly faster.

He built it to use the stock transmission / final drive / hub (an idea that I'm going to take credit for ). After putting it all together, though, we found that it would wheelie hard in first and second, and still pull hard in third. He didn't have fourth gear working then, so it was effectively in third gear all the time. He changed the pulley ratio and I think now maybe 2nd gear is a bit more effective. So basically, it's got all the torque in the world to get off the line. All that's left is to find the right pulley ratio to get whatever speed you want it to go across the range of gears.

It doesn't go very far, though. He's using SLA batteries, and I think he's only getting around five miles of range. Ideally, it would use lithium ion batteries, but that involves a lot of expense and a very complex charging system.

It can't be done. Vintage Vespas require a fairly small side-mounted lump. The modern Vespa engines are very long to accommodate the CVT transmission / swingarm. There's just no way to fit it without radically altering the lines of the Vespa, to the point that it would no longer look like a classic Vespa.

I took that thing for a spin and it was a real hoot. Gotta work on the range though. This sort of conversion is probably what will allow us too keep riding our classics once our evil two stroke motors bet banned.

I wanna say I've seen it done in Scootering Magazine at some point, it wasn't pretty. I'm really surprised that nobody seems to be putting GY6 motors in Lambrettas

I think that's the real take-away. You can fabricate anything you want and fit whatever into whatever. Retaining the lines of the classic Vespa is the part that (I think) is impossible. I know an ET4 engine has been put into a Lambretta. Seems like the Lammy frame would be a lot more conducive to modern engine swaps.

That's amazing! I'm very impressed with the conversion and it's great to see how alternative designs work out. We originally looked at putting the motor in the same position but decided against it partly because we didn't think it would fit! It also seemed simpler to not have to keep the clutch and gears and oil but then there are compromises between initial acceleration and top speed. Also love that he's using a belt instead of chain. Less noise, cleaner, no on-going adjustment, etc. His motor adaptor plate is much simpler and cheaper than ours too.

Any chance you could put me in touch with you're friend? I've got a few questions about how he did things and what he thinks worked and didn't work.

Cheers,
Andrew

Estimated range is 30km (18.6 miles) and estimated top speed is 70km/h (43.5mph) but I really don't know until I test these. Actually I'm pretty sure it won't do 70km/h but that might be easily solved with lower gearing. These motors have heaps of torque so hopfully the initial acceleration will still be ok. Looks like I might be getting paperwork for registration this weekend so will update with details soon.

There's some nice engineering involved in converting those scoots to electric. I can appreciate that.

But you guys are basically reducing these machines to electric mopeds. I mean, whats the point (except doing the actual building and engineering, of course)? They're not faster (but slower), not safer (but heavier), they don't go any further and they don't make the nice two stroke sound.

I mean, you might as well remove the motor all together and put pedals on it. A scoot like that would run on beer and vegetables for as long as the rider wants.

Has anyone put a modern vespa engine in a vintage?

While it's true that range is a problem, speed is not. The one I posted pictures of can go extremely fast. A moped it is not.

The builder and owner of the yellow bike pictured above built it because he is interested in green technology and likes vintage Vespas. He is also a consummate engineer and very much enjoys the engineering challenge.

And he actually rides it to and from work, so it' genuinely useful as well.

Already addressed in this thread.

As jess commented, these scooter are no slouches. The Etek motors have been used in numerous electric motorcycle conversions, have heaps of torque and very good power to weight ratio. Like all electric motors, they have all of their torque available from 0 rpm so you don't have to get up to a few thousand revs before reaching the power band. This means that initial acceleration is probably much better than the original scooter.

Top speed may not be as high but for my needs that should be fine. The speed limits around the city only go up to 70km/h anyway which is where I plan to use it.

In terms of weight, the original scooter weighed 95kg with a full tank of fuel and the electric version weighs 100kg. Not much difference really so yes it's not safer but I wouldn't say it's less safe. Some riders weigh at least 5kgs more than me

Range is the biggest problem which comes down to the amount of energy that the batteries can store. Petrol (gas) is much much better at this. There's a lot of research in this area at the moment so hopefully we'll continue to see improvements like we've seen with lithium ion batteries for a bit longer. Mobile phones last a lot longer now than they used to!

For me the attraction was that electric vehicles are a much more elegant solution than petrol. Electric motors are cleaner, simpler, more efficient and more reliable than internal combustion engines. If you buy green electricity they're also zero emission. Even if you don't believe in global warming caused by human activity, at some point we're going to run out of oil so it's a good idea to look at alternatives.

BUT I completely understand that the idea of modernising a vintage Vespa like this doesn't sit well with some people as it removes things that are part of it's character, including the nice two stroke sound!

I've been doing a little bit of riding on the scooter to test how everything is working and so far it's been pretty good. In terms of range I've been consistently getting 30km per charge but I haven't really pushed it yet as there are still some issues with the battery management system. Once that's sorted out I'll be able to charge the battery pack to a higher voltage and run them lower without risk of damage.

I've also made some changes to the gearing as my top speed was around 65km/h. The shop where I bought the motor said that I could safely run it at 1 mph per volt which at 51.2V equates to 82km/h, so I changed the small sprocket inside the crank case from 12 teeth to 14 teeth.







The taller gearing means that it doesn't accelerate quite as well as it did before but it now goes above 75km/h without any problems.

However, at these higher speeds, the scooter develops a noticeable wobble like the tyres are stuck in grooves in the road or something and the scooter moves a little from side to side. I'm not sure if it's coming from the front or the back wheel but it's pretty scary when it happens! It was pretty windy at the time which might have played a part but after doing a bit of searching online it seems like small wheels, tyre pressure, anything loose, bearings, frame or forks out of alignment, something to do with suspension? might be responsible. Is anyone an expert in these things that can shed some light and is there a way to improve or fix the problem?

As a start I'll check the bearings are ok and everything is done up like it should be. I was also thinking of getting some new inner tubes and tyres as I'm not sure how old these ones are.

Congrats! This is pretty cool..

How is the range? I'd like to see that vespa do the same top speed as a regular petrol powered one. Why can't you add gears? Two gears, for instance. One low and one high, just for that extra accelleration?

The wobble you are describing can come from a number of things.

Start checking the easy things first:

The most obvious thing that comes to mind is that you have tried to ride the bike without the right side of the engine block. The rear axle needs the support from the roller bearing on right half of the engine block.

How are the tyres? Get some new ones, and try to avoid those with a centre groove. They're good when its raining, but makes the bike a little more squirrely on dry roads.

Are the rims on the right way?

How is the front wheel bearing? Is there any play in the wheel?

Check the front fork linkage. Any play?

Check the fork bearings. Have you tightend the fork properly at the top?

Are the engine mounts (rubber buffers around the swingarm bolt) good. Old ones tend to make the engine sag a little to the right.

Is the frame straight?



Is the front fork on tight in the frame? How
If you are pretty sure the front and rear is alligned properly,

It can be done, but it's not pretty. A buddy and I stuffed a GY6 into a small frame, but it was a huge job to install. Its not actually all the way into the bike in that shot, but its the only one I seem to have still...

might have to say yes now

Extremely nice preservation of the original. It looks like this could actually be swapped back to stock! I'm on the fence about electric. To me it's all a novelty at this time and this is a trick set up.

Politically, if the world suddenly went all electric, it would be a disaster - where would the electricity come from - factories that burned gas to make electricity???

currently its 80/20 Coal/Natural Gas. I think we should move to nuclear.

wouldn't it technically be more efficient if we went all electric even if it was being generated by gasoline? (since the generators could be making it a lot more efficiently than current cars/trucks/etc) and the newer electric cars would also be more efficient in the use of the energy...

the real problem comes in the cost of manufacturing and switching.

basically it'd never happen overnight.

Very nice job on the electrics.
I can see myself doing one to a PX some day...

My original Idea was to make it hybrid so not to use the batteries and to be able to put more power to the engine as well as to get more range.

I've replaced the right side of the engine block with a new aluminium plate which holds the axle. Have a look at the first page of this thread to see some pics.

Thanks for the other tips, I'll definitely check those out to see if I can track down the problem.

Out of interest do other riders of old Vespas experience the same problem? At what speed do you start to feel the wobbles?

That sounds like an interesting project! If I come across anyone else who's done this I'll pass the info on. Good luck!

I've heard of nuclear powered subs but I don't think a nuclear powered Vespa would be very safe

I think you're right in that generators are tuned to run efficiently at a particular rpm and they don't have to slow down and speed up all the time so they would be more efficient. As much as I like the idea of electric vehicles I've found it quite difficult to find definitive information on whether or not it's better. Some reports say EVs are worse than gas if the electricity comes from coal fired power stations and others say it's better. The more green your electricity production the greater the benefit.

In Australia you can buy 100% green power which is meant to be sourced from renewable generation (wind, solar, etc.) so if that's true then the riding around and recharging is zero emissions. I do need to be careful when replacing the batteries though to make sure they're recycled or disposed of cleanly/safely. If I look after them, I should get around 2,000 cycles which equates to about 7-8 years. Sounds like a lot so hopefully this is true!

Right, I see now.

Anyway, it shouldn't wobble. But do remember that the small wheels makes it feel a little squirrely compared to a larger bike. Maybe thats what you are experiencing?

Do you have the front shock installed? I see that it is missing in those first photos you posted.

Even coal fired power stations are more efficient at producing power than a regular petrol engine. The CO2 emissions will be lower from an electric (coal powered) car than a comparable petrol powered car.

as long as you ignore strip mining.

A great example of electric vehicles that answered all the relevant questions, were the iconic British milk floats. Introduced in the 1950s, these were a common sight, inching their way around the English country side and suburbs in the early hours. Whether they make you laugh or just shake your head, you can't deny that they made perfect sense. Their architecture met all the functional objectives, they were inexpensive to build and maintain, could travel 60 -80 miles for just a few pennies at speeds up to 20mph. Great for stop-start driving and were also silent, which was important for early morning deliveries. Lots of torque to climb steep hills with a full load and because they replaced the horse and cart.

and i can't get over 5mph on the scoot ;(

And the Bloodhound is a World's Fastest Car and this is a 42 foot comprehensive means of transport is touting as world is a best automobile. It will allegedly "reach Mach 1.4 when it blasts across an as-yet undetermined desert, zipping along at a speed that's literally faster than a speeding bullet."

Bloodhound project this is a 3 year task lead through Richard dignified and that is will be a land speed evidence of in excess of 1000MPH put. And the car, name is the Bloodhound SSC is supposed to be able of Mach 1.4.

bet u can't make it amphibious!?

leccy bikes look dangerous ... even the builder cant handle it

T5bits I cant help but laugh a little there. i guess the video camera got the best of him. no helmet, no gear, no brain. i would have understood if he was at a scooter rally, that kinda thing happens all the time.

there's a movie coming out called larry crown and for the movie they had a viet lammy converted by a harley shop......i rode it a few times and yes it was cool but no where as nice as the ones in this tread......one of the characters didn't know how to ride a vintage and so they whipped an electric bike together for the shoot......i'm glad they didn't use an original lambretta........

that is amazing thanks for sharing, i hate to think that petrol will be banned one day; but if it is this is a custom way we can enjoy our old scoots. real cool. love my gas motor but it is nice to see you can do anything with a vespa.

but it would be FAST!