Modern Vespa

Sorry to rehash this for the umpteenth time, but my frame and engine numbers don't match. Did they ever? I've heard reports that claim when built they either did or didn't. Gotta love those definite maybes.

The frame number is 102XXX and the engine number is 1004XX.

The frame number is followed by 1GM1380.OM (as near as I can make it out) What does that mean?

Near as I can finger out, this is too low of a frame number to be a '61 so it may in actuality be a '60. Were there any outward differences between the two years which I can check for?

I was told that this was originally delivered to Australia, could that account for the early frame number? Way back when, it was customary for car dealers to change the model year on unsold vehicles. I have a '57 Ghia (low light) which is titled as a '58.

Enough of my rambling for now. Dammit, am outta ice for my JD!

the frames were made on one assembly line and engines were made on a different assembly line. i have never heard of the frame and engine numbers matching.

The IGMxxx number is an italian thing thats stamped on most parts to show that these belong to the original motor. If it doesn't have the IGM number it is not original to the bike.

And afaik, engine numbers and frame numbers should match on an original bike.

^ Well, sort of. The IGM number (Ispettorato Generale Motorizzazione - yeah, OK I Googled it) was an Italian inspection/homologation number, but it's not like it will be stamped on all of the engine's parts. Not having the IGM number doesn't necessarily mean a part is not original, but having it is a good indication that it is at least an original Italian part... if that makes sense.

Anyway, frame and engine numbers do not match, unless someone has restamped or is faking it.

fun fact!: I've seen DMV get confused and try to register a bike using the IGM # instead of the VIN for registration.

Also, to crazydude... I wouldn't get too hung up on model year. I'm assuming the VIN charts are reasonably reliable for year of manufacture, but it could have been easily sold or registered in a different year and so designated by whatever licensing authority printed out your piece of paper.

This may help.
http://www.scooterhelp.com/serial/ves.serial.numbers.html

fun fact!: I've seen DMV get confused and try to register a bike using the IGM # instead of the VIN for registration.

The first scooter I ever had, a 73 sprint came registered to the # on the carb box cover got it that way from a junkyard!

that's a super common thing, Allstates sometimes get registered by the Sears catalog # on the tag by the fuel tap

This thread has the same conflicting info I've already mentioned having found on this here interweb.....that the scooters either were built with OR without matching frame and engine numbers.

I are so confused that it's making me itch.

Here's the deal. They did not come from the factory with matching numbers. Sometimes they end up matching on the title because the registering authorities are lazy, clueless, mistaken, or just don't record it for some reason.

I'm curious what sources you've seen making a case for matching, 'cuz they're wrong.

This is not the case for all brands. Yamaha motorcycles for example shipped with matching frame and engine numbers (at least for the years I'm interested in.) but I'm assuming we're limiting our discussion to Vespas here.

You've got one person who has said that they don't match. They have offered a very good reason (diff assembly lines) why, they have >500 posts, a pretty Lammy avatar, and they list a bunch of vintage bikes listed that they own/

OR

You've got another person who suggests "as far as they know" that they do match. This person has 29 posts, offers no credible evidence, and we can't tell what kind if vintage background they have.

Now, post count, forum presence, and having a bunch of vintage bikes may not mean squat but they are good indicators. However, quality of reply and knowledge do count. Who are you gonna trust?

PS: The engine and frame numbers don't match on vintage Vespas.
Also, if you want to find the model production year, as opposed to the registered year, then use the VIN decoder that astromags posted. The year it was made and the year it was registered aren't always the same on the title.

Oh come on now, that just makes too much sense LOL. I clearly see your point, do you see mine? It's right there on top of my head!

I totally agree with you for the reasons you state.

I know just what you mean regarding DMV screw ups...somehow they chopped two doors off a Chrysler I had and it took about 12 trees worth of paper to get them to correct their mistake!

I don't recall where I found that wrong info about the claims of the matching numbers but if I come across it again I'll post it here, but I *did* see it.

Nammers sometimes come with matching numbers, because they have to restamp stuff as they're using several pieces of different bikes.

Servetas come with matching numbers, because the factory there did things differently.

Innocenti Lambrettas never come with matching numbers.

Vespas never come with matching numbers and if they have matching numbers its the first clue that something is not right about that bike.

Anyone that states anywhere that Vespas should come with matching numbers is obviously talking out of their rear end and has never actually been in contact with a real Vespa

When someone says "matching numbers" it means the motor number is the correct year/model as the frame.

My '65 SS180 has matching numbers
My '68 SS does not have matching numbers, it has a P2 motor

Sean, you raise an interesting point but are using "matching" in a different context than I meant. Surely some people will consider "matching" in both my and your way, so the question should be clarified to obtain the specific answer!

And thanks to Andrea for her "official" answer too! Am in the area and if I can find the time I might drop by to annoy you on Saturday. You have been "warned" LOL

No vespa has the same number on the motor and on the frame.
If your a collector,
the motor number must match the frame number to be considered original

My '59 VGLA has matching numbers. I have myself restored that from a rusted bike that has been untouched for the last 50 years.

My '64 Sprint and my '65 SS also has matching numbers.
They have both been restored by myself from a rusted italian bike and and rusted german bike.

All three are original bikes with original motors. The sprint now has a T5 engine. It is not original and it does not match the frame number.


So, yes, they do have to match for it to be an original bike. Maybe they don't in the US, but then again, they had all sorts of wierd adaptations over there.

The fact that post count is supposed to give any credibility is just ridiculous. The post count gives an indication of how much a poster likes to sit at his computer, and nothing else.

This thread reminds me of Groucho's song "Hello, I must be going"

OK, as I read it the original poster was referring to matching numbers as the frame and engine having the exact same number. He has already stated as much. So I'm pretty sure he was asking if the frame number is VLB1T2002 should the engine number be VLB1M2002.

Sean and Jonna I'm pretty sure are operating on the definition of 'matching numbers' as the year of the frame number matches the year of the engine number and is sequentially correct, etc., or maybe it matches the original factory documentation. I can see how that's a useful way to define it (especially for classic cars - do we really have enough factory documentation to care about this with Vespas?), and obviously by that definition the numbers should "match" on an original bike, i.e. the frame should have a year appropriate engine. To assert otherwise would be silly, wouldn't it?

But that's not what OP was asking, so maybe it's best to clarify, which we've done... and I think we're all good now?

guess that common everywhere.. in my place even worse cause the (hat u call in ur place as dmv were lazzy they even type vlb as vib mine were event stamp in engine as vcb crap luckly their never touch the owner book i have thats the only legit proof of the bike vin

Douglas vespas are the only vespas I know of that have exactly the same engine and frame numbers.

some spanish motovespas may have as well (i seem to remember seeing one once, but i might be making it up)

"matching" in this context means exactly what someone said earlier, right engine for the frame , could be hundreds out.

If a piaggio engine and frame number was exactly the same I would be very suspicious.