Modern Vespa

Specs

http://s02.static-shell.com/content/dam/shell-new/local/business/rotella/downloads/pdf/rotella-t6-brochure.pdf


Rebate

http://www.shell.com/rotella/promotions1/fall-synthetics-promotion.html

+1

That's all I use in all my bikes... T6 !
Every now and then I catch a good Deal on Amazon, and buy a case.

Keith

The old standby: whale oil!



Seriously, see the user's manual, or use a good 4 stroke motorcycle oil (the particular weight you use can vary based upon your climate).[/img]

We use to use Whale Oil when I worked at Raytheon for tape drive solenoid. They eventually found a synthetic whale oil.

New JASO oil standards (MA1, MA2):

JASO effectively added the JASO-MA2 & JASO-MA1 specifications by splitting the existing JASO-MA spec into two groups by friction-performance (MA1 is the lower friction oils; MA2 the higher friction oils suitable for bikes).
The change came out as final/approved in 2006 in response to catalytic converters becoming widespread in bikes (EPA/EU requirements); it was also prompted in part by the car-lobby of the JASO organization wanting to specify a subset of the JASO-MA oils for use in their cars (the low friction oils, which become JASO-MA1). JASO-MA2 is just starting to show up in the US Market as a rating because this is the first year that catalytic converter-equipped bikes are widespread.

Aside from splitting the MA spec into two sub-groups, the new specs add a phosphorous content ceiling (better protect catalytic converters by using less, but phosphorous is also anti-wear additive, so it could be less start-up protection). JASO-MA2 being the heavier friction oils most suitable for motorcycle use will become the common standard for Japanese-built (and many Euro-built) motorcycles for the '08 and later model years.

Note that JASO-MA2 can now be API SJ formulated, but API SL & API SM formulations still directly contradict JASO-MA/MA1/MA2 standards because of the use of friction modifiers that are not wet-clutch compatible.

The JASO-MA (no suffix number) still remains in effect as well. For the Kats, API SF/SG + JASO-MA rated oils will remain the oils of choice until they are no longer available.

Shell Rotella T6 is JASO-MA, not JASO-MA2.Shell may be reformulating T6 to meet the new Heavy Duty Diesel requirements. That may conflict with the new JASO-MA1 and 2 standards.

ENI makes a product that is JASO-MA2 rated. I-RIDE 5w-40. It is rated for Piaggio/Vespa/Scarabeo.

We don't have wet clutches, so does it really matter to us?

Not one damn bit.

Why do people continue to debate oil?

I think I have an answer

but my clutch gets wet when it rains, does that matter?

You'd be wanting the oil with the Teflon additive then.

is that a water displacement additive?

Why yes, yes it is.
I read it on the Interwebs.

They can't put anything on the internet that isn't true.

Wait. Water? Water in the clutch? Does that mean I also need to add coolant? And would it be pink or green?

Lavender scented purple would be my guess.

Well, duh, it's called a 'wet clutch'....

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I have a question.

I changed my MP3 400 oil last weekend and I carelessly assumed that I remembered reading it was 5W30 synthetic in the manual.

I had a couple of quarts of Mobil 1 5W30 synthetic left over from my car oil change so I put it into the MP3. Changed the filter and started the engine to check for leak and all.

Then I went back inside to update my records on my computer for the oil change and then luckily I noticed that I had written down 5W40 for the MP3, not 5W30. Oops, crap! Went on this forum to read up to see what are the recommended 5W40s to use and found this thread. Rotella T6 5W40 with JASO MA it is.

Went to Walmart and got a gallon of it for $22. Would never understand why Amazon is selling it for $45 (has 466 5-star reviews and all). Who would buy it there if Walmart is $22?...

Anyway, went home and drained all the Mobile1 5W30 out. Removed the filter and drained all the oil out of it, too. Put the filter back on and the Rotella T6 in.

My question is that since I caught it in time and haven't really ridden my MP3 in it (although I did run it at idle for a few minutes to check for leak), the tiny trace of the 5W40 left inside that couldn't be drained out completely should be insignificant, right?

The other question is about the shelf life. I figure I ride on the average about 3K miles a year. So I wouldn't have to change oil again until a couple of years later. I've heard that oil shelf life is a couple of years. My Chevy Volt which is an electric car with an engine (for when you're out of battery juice) requires an oil change every 2 years even if you don't put enough miles on the engine. So that's why I figure that the oil shelf life is at least a couple of years or more.

What is the shelf life of the Rotella T6 5W40? I know it's at least 2 (in general, per my Chevy Volt requirement). I've heard 3 to 5 years before, too. So is it OK to use the remaining 2 quarts of the T6 I have left 2 years from now, and that it wouldn't be changed out until 4 years later from now?

Or do you advise that I try to use it up in a couple of years? That would mean that I'd change oil again in 1 year/3K miles just to use it up within a couple of years?

Also, the MP3 manual says to change the oil filter with every oil change. But if I change my oil in 3K miles and not 6K miles, do I really need to change the oil filter at 3K miles? I'm guessing not, but looking for confirmation here in case oil filter change has to go hand in hand with oil change for some other reason beside the 6K mile interval.

Change the filter every time, for sure. If nothing else, will you be SURE to remember that you didn't replace it last time?

As for the residual 5W30 in your engine, think nothing of it. No harm will come.

And shelf life, well that depends. Sealed bottle? Looong time. Open bottle, less time. But I have motor oil for things laying around that is probably over 5-6 years old, and would not hesitate to use it. I do close the bottle reasonably tightly, and don't store it in the rain (it is in my garage, though). I figure, if some water gets in the oil it will be tiny amount and will be boiled off quite quickly.

Filters are cheap on the web. Change it every time. I change both every 3K

So motor oil shelf life has mostly to do with moisture invasion and little to do with just simply aging sitting there on the shelf?

The oil will last much longer in the bike than the filter, an old filter will swell over time. If you only ride 1000 mi or so per year just change the filter and top off the oil level at beginning of each riding season.

if that is all you ride is 3k a year do an annual oil change and filter before putting it up for extended period of time. this way any moisture or contaminates are removed that causes corrosion when sitting for long periods of inactivity.

Amazon Prime members can get Rotella T-6 for $21.36 per gallon, but if they set up a subscription, they can get it for as low as $18.16 per gallon. There's currently a $5 rebate. Which lowers the the price to $13.16 per gallon...

Thanks, I wasn't logged in when I saw the $45. After I logged in as prime member, indeed I saw the $21.36 price like you said. Thanks!

Thanks. But I live in Phoenix, so there's no winter here to put away the bike, and I expect to be riding all year round. I just have very short commute to work and short trips around town everyday.

I just noticed Walmart is selling 4 Gallon Jugs now...
Awesome, and the price per Gallon is a little lower.

Keith
Marietta, GA

A little off. Walwart has 1 and 2.5 gallon jugs of Shell Rotella T6. If you take the price per gallon the 2.5 is not much cheaper.

Now Klaborde if you need to stock up.

http://www.kellerheartt.com/Shell-Rotella-T6-5W-40-CJ-4-55-Gallon-Drum-p/550019901.htm

Crank pump not included.

Looks like their best deal

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Shell-Rotella-Synthetic-5W-40-Motor-Oil-1-Gallon-Casepack-of-3-units/42299972

Still it would be cheaper to buy single gallons and apply for the rebate

Oil has a 5-6 year shelf life in a sealed container according to oil manufactures, after that time additives can start breaking down and become less effective.

And remember, you open a bottle and store it not full the time clock starts counting down. Once it's open the moisture additives begin to work.

I don't know... First of all, I don't think that they vacuum seal the bottles at mfg anyway from what I can tell. So yes, if you open a bottle in a very humid area where the air is moisture laden, then storing a half full bottle would introduce some moisture into the bottle.

But in a more dry environment like AZ where there's very little moisture in the air, I don't really know if it'll be affected as much or not.

One other way to combat the issue is to save older quart size empty bottles. After you have opened up a gallon container and let's say used half of it, if you fill up the quart size bottles with the remaining oil to the rim, then you will have kept out most of the moisture in the air already.

[quote="Volusiano"] That's what I did, kept my old qt bottles.
But with my Piaggio I buy AGIP oil which is only available in qts. so not an issue.

[quote="WEB-Tech"] Just curious where you buy AGIP oil since I notice that you live in the US (VA). Is it readily and widely available in the US like Rotella T6 is?

Also how does it compare price-wise to Rotella T6?

[quote="Volusiano"] Have to order from AF1 Racing. Use to buy it by the case from AGIP America but they don't sell directly to the public anymore.

As far as price, not cheap, about twice as much as Rotella. I don't look at prices when I buy oil, I look at the base the oil was made from.

[quote="WEB-Tech"] When you buy anything from AF1 make sure you find out how much shipping they are going to charge you. Used to be $8 flat rate no matter what you buy.

For 1 quart of the AGIP 5W40 oil (which is $14.99), looks like shipping is $9.95 for the lower 48 states.

But for orders $199 or more it's free shipping. I did this recently with them.

I tried to read up on this forum about the AGIP oil base to educate myself some more on how it's better than the Rotella T6 oil base, and I couldn't find much except some post where you mentioned that oils from Mobil, AGIP, etc are class 4 base while oil from Shell (Rotella) are class 3 base.

There's some indication that class 4 oils are fully synthetic while class 3 oils are not full synthetic. But then I read some poster in the regular MV forum mentioned that he called up Shell and asked directly and they claim it to be full synthetic and that some of their documentation was incorrect and they will fix it now that it's been brought to their attention

Anyway, if Rotella T6 claims to be fully synthetic and JASO MA compatible, are they perfectly good enough to use on the Piaggio? Why resort to something like AGIP that costs about 3 times more? Is the 3x ROI really worth the cost?

The other thing I notice is that there must be a dozen differrent oil brands at Walmart at all kinds of grades, yet I could not find any other brand on the Walmart shelves that would offer the 5W40 grade beside Rotella.

Why is the 5W40 grade so hard to find at a common store like Walmart?

Probably because most WM customers don't buy oil for their cars/trucks that recommend 5W-40 oil. I get all my vehicles oil @ WM but it is never 5W-40. If I again told you what I use here I might be warned of being dropped from this board again because I don't do what everybody else here seems to do. The fact I have had my MP3s longer than many here without any failures doesn't matter.

36,000miles on my MP3 on Rotella T6 oil since I got it. All 3 scoots are running the same. Rotella oil and the HiFlo filters. I change every 3K miles and spend less than going to the dealer every 6K.

These scooter engines are just like high-reving small car engines, not MC engines. Jaso MA is just a Japanese spec that oil works with a wet clutch's (no friction modifiers) and does not cause it to slip under load.

There is no wet clutch in this motor and thus Jaso MA/MA-2 really has zero relevance. An oil does not need the spec on the bottle to work.

Mobil 1 5w-40 diesel will work and is a very solid synthetic oil.
Rotella T6 will work too, but they just got Jaso MA cert because so many used their oil otherwise, they paid for the testing and it passed. Mobil has not gone that way, because they have their own line of MC, but the Mobil I listed would pass if they tried.

Like on bikes, synthetic diesel oils work well and can be had cheap at Wallmart, which is why they are so popular to use.

The REAL question here is what type of synthetic oil are we talking about???

T6 is a type III (hydrocracked) and the lowest grade of synth oil. It was a sue job to get it labeled as such, if that tells ya anything, but riders have been using T6 for years and years with great success.

Mobil 1 used to be Type IV (POA) oil but they have cheapened out to compete with Type III producers. The basic Mobil 1 is said to be Type III while the 15k extended is said to also have Type IV added to the mixture.
I'm not sure 100% what the 5w-40 diesel but it has very positive test results from Blackstone. Diesels are hard on oil & thus the oils need to be robust.

The top oil type and most desirable oil for this small high-reving engine is a Type 5 ester based oil. Ester oils are used in jets!

Redline makes a 5w-40 ester synth and would be tops on my list.
Your not going to find a Jaso MA spec (as they make MC oil too) but like I said it's not a needed spec...which this oil would pass with.
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=3

Motul makes a dynamite MC oil in 5w-40 - 300V - and has that MA spec.
https://www.motul.com/us/en-US/products/oils-lubricants/300v-factory-line-road-racing-5w40?

Those would be my 2 top choices as they best oils you can buy in the world for these motors.

After that I would choose an Amsoil 5w-40 car oil - said to be Type IV oil.
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/gasoline/european-car-formula-5w-40-synthetic-motor-oil/?code=AFLQT-EA

or a Motul 5w-40 scooter oil, but Motul has not said if this is a Type III or Type IV oil or a mix (it's just 100% synthetic). If it was Type V ester then Motul would say so. My gut feeling is this is a Type IV oil and a very solid oil and the best choice if you want a label that says it meets all your requirements. I'm sure Piaggio would say hell yes to this oil.
https://www.motul.com/us/en-US/products/oils-lubricants/scooter-power-4t-5w40

After that I'd say the Mobil 1 diesel oil then finally Rotella T6 if ya need oil asap and a Walmart is near by.

Agip, Elf, Valvoline & others make a 5w-40 synthetic scooter oil and these would work too.

The saying goes some oil any oil is better than no oil at all.

"API Group III base oils are sometimes considered Fully synthetic, but they are still classified as highest-top-level mineral-base stocks."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil

Shell called it's Type III hydrocracked mineral base stock oil a "synthetic oil". Mobil sued as Mobil 1 was Type IV and then considered a true synthetic. Shell won because they argued it was now different/better and thus synthetic...but also cheaper for them.

It comes down to what does synthetic mean. It was established Type IV and Type V are truly synthetic but Shell bent the rules.

It's only 1.5 quarts and maybe a few $s more on a high reving costly machine. The choice is yours where you cheap out. To me oil is the blood that keeps engines alive and I want the best in there.