Modern Vespa

What's really stunning here is that this topic was about someone prevailing over an abuse of authority. Something we should all be in favor of. Instead, a few select individuals mistook the topic for a soapbox upon which they could stand to lecture us and call us hypocrites.

Pathetic self-righteous babble served from on-high.

Maybe you were unintentionally warning a drunk driver of a police presence. I think we should allow police to do their jobs. Speeders and drunks are a hazard to us all. BTW: this thread followed a natural progression, and here we are.

So let me get this straight "WB." You are cruising down the highway doing about 70 mph and enjoying the long cruise, daydreaming about riding the Vespa, having a nice dinner with the wife or even going to church, when all of a sudden a couple flashes from my good buddy Muni catches your attention. You look down and see that needle dancing around the numero 70 and then up to that dang white sign that says 55 and you don't slow down? And then you don't wipe your brow, say a silent "thanks buddy" to Muni and hug 55 as you drive by Smokey hiding behind a stand of pine trees with his radar gun?

I'm sure you would just circle around and give that nice officer your information and a check for $200 to cover your speeding ticket. Do you also call your insurance company to make sure they get what's coming to them?

Well, hell-you just ain't human.

We all have to play within the rules that are given. So should the cops. When pulling someone over for revenue enhancement for the community that pays the cop's paycheck is a priority-it's all just gone too far. Don't like speed traps or DUI checkpoints. Smells too much like entrapment. I get tired of my government protecting us from ourselves.

It's pretty fair to say I can decide just from this topic who I'd like to ride with and who I wouldn't.

When I was 16, I lost my license to a speed trap I saw coming. I didn't slow down because it was kind of a trick. Completely aimed at revenue or a quota near as I can tell. Let me explain:

In VT, there is a graduated license. At until you are 17, if you get 3 points on your license, in one shot or cumulatively, you lose your license for 6 months or a year (can't recall exactly, it was a long time ago).

I'm driving along in a 50. Actually going 50. Like a good boy. Up ahead, there is an officer parked right in front of a speed sign signaling the transition into a 35mph zone. I see him. He's in plain sight and well ahead of me. HOWEVER - I was under the impression at the time that a speed limit was posted for the zone you were in. I was in a 50mph zone. Figuring there was a reasonable buffer zone of some some sort before and after the sign, I began to slow down. But, foolish me, in the state of Vermont you have to be AT the speed limit by the instant you hit the corresponding speed limit sign (which means even though you are "in a 50" you can't really be going 50 when near the sign since you need to be instantly at 35 when you hit it). This cop knew this.

So, I'm gradually slowing down and I reach the cop. At that point I'm going about 45. But I haven't reached the sign, technically... I'm maybe a car length in front of it (not that I knew the particulars anyway).

I reach the sign... I pass the sign decelerating... maybe within 25 feet of passing the sign I'm putting along at 35.

Flashing lights.

The cop pulls me and TWO OTHER CARS over at once. He comes to me and asks why I was speeding. I am thoroughly confused, because, you see, I was going 45 in a 50 zone. He slaps me with a 250 dollar fine and a 3 point ticket. He knows what he is doing. I lost my license for 6 months or a year (again, I can't remember which).

I considered fighting it in court. Because this seems like a seriously gray area. But I got to work the next morning (thanks to my poor dad), and my boss and several other superiors live in that town. Turns out, everyone in the town had been hit with this trap at one point or another, and the cop shows up EVERY time to court and the judge always rules in favor since the technicality is you have to be at the new speed the instant you hit the sign.

So I was shit out of luck. Worst summer ever since a week before this incident I'd gotten this new job and it was a long commute out of the way from my home or any of my parents' or friends' jobs, so someone was going to be really inconvenienced every day of the week for me to get there.

What really grated me was how gray this thing was. And I was a very responsible young lad, believe it or not, and could have easily avoided being pulled over if I had known what he was up to... I wasn't speeding in any way as far as I had known. He deliberately took my license away and 250 dollars (along with pounding two other dudes I was driving between).

If he wasn't after money and/or a quota I don't know what he was up to. Really jaded me towards the cops there because even when you try to behave they come after you. FWIW, though, I never got pulled over for flashing lights at someone there.

Precisely. Then he can slow the heck down and drive as carefully as possible. That's what I want. If the police are going to stop him, it's because he's driving dangerously. I don't want people driving dangerously around me.

Warning people of a police presence is why cars are marked and officers wear uniforms, so there shouldn't be anything wrong with that. Agreed. Let's go even farther - let's help them! When we flash our lights and other drivers slow down, it can only make the roads safer. We'll also reduce a problem, that's very dangerous to us as scooterists, of drivers slamming on the brakes when they round a corner and see a police car.

Kindergarten adjourned.

I had just the opposite experience just after arriving on Kauai. As I'm leaving the airport, I see a sign reading "Speed Limit 45'. I get pulled over. The cop says, "but you hadn't gotten to the sign yet".

I can give you an even better scenario...let's say I REALLY didn't see the cop in the middle of the road...I was REALLY entering the highway from a truck/rest stop...and, let's say someone on the other side of the highway was driving with no headlights on (which I do see too often unfortunately)...or, somebody is in the lane near me with no lights on...and, I flash them to help them out....but, maybe the officer didn't see the car with no lights on but sees me flashing my lights to help that motorist out...now, because of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, he pulls me over and gives me a ticket...he wouldn't believe me of course...or, what if somebody is driving the wrong way on the highway...which also happens often sadly and usually with terrible results...am I not supposed to flash my lights? The rule says FLASHING LIGHTS PROHIBITED...it's an open and shut case...I have an 11 to 12 page copy of the lawsuit which was recently filed against the attorney general of Florida and the FHP (and all local police enforcement agencies)...here's a brief and very brief idea of what we are doing here:


22.The Plaintiff specifically seeks a declaration that FHP and like situated law enforcement agencies' intentional, arbitrary and capricious application of §316.2397(7), Florida Statutes, violates the due process clause of the Fourteenth and Fifth Amendments of the United States Constitution, and Article I, Section 4 of the Florida Constitution.
23.Plaintiff further seeks declarations of the Defendant, FHP's arbitrary and capricious application of §316.2397(7), Florida Statutes, violation of free speech clause of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution and Article X, Section 6, of the
Florida Constitution.
24. Further Plaintiff seeks the declaration that the payment of a fine or penalty or the
incurrence of other costs and expenses relating to the issuance of the citation under §316.2397(7), Florida Statutes, denies Plaintiff of his property without due process of law and is a taking of property without due process of law by government without the authority under an unconstitutional application of the Statute, in violation of the Fifth
Amendment of the United States Constitution and Article X, Section 6 of the Florida Constitution.

Muni - what was your original intention on flashing your lights? Your post yesterday said you were warning oncoming drivers of the speed trap: But back in May you were having a hard time seeing down the road

While it sounds warm and fuzzy to say that warning folks of a radar site "helps reduce speeding", for how long does that "help" last?

A highway patrol captain high school classmate of mine decided to see for himself several years ago. When the state set up a routine speed logging point to monitor speeds on the interstate, he had one of his teams set up a radar enforcement check point four miles upstream for two hours. They served the normal amount of tickets for speeding, and the % of cars exceeding the speed limit four miles later was virtually the same - before, during and after the two hour radar enforcement.

Ever wonder why patrol officers are sometimes grumpy?

Al

Both....but, no matter the reason, it's still not illegal.

Because they don't get to abuse their authority as much as they would like?

This is still about abuse of authority. Everyone who keeps trying to make this about speeding is missing the much, much bigger picture.

FROG you to on the speed traps I wasn't old enough to get my DL until AFTER the speed limits were changed (lowered). That said i lived off of the Mass extension (last stop on the NYS Thruway before it becomes the Pike B3) and i got caught 3 times in one of those speed traps over a 2 1/2 month period. Even today there still is nothing but rural pastures along that strip. exit B2 got me every time. I did get my DL taken away but the judge was cool and put a date after i was going to move to VA so i could switch it over and then it (NY one) would become invalid. My dad in his infinite wisdom should of given me a VW for graduated from college (20 at the time) rather than a Camaro Now the same road is 65 like it used to be

Jess, it's only about abuse of authority because you are insisting on framing it that way. I don't believe MV has become a place where people can't agree to disagree...does everyone have to see this issue exactly as you do?

As you so often say, threads take turns and not everything stays on topic. The same thing is happening here. I am with those who say that drunk drivers deserve to get caught (and prosecuted fully) and people who speed excessively do so knowing full well what the consequences are, and they accept the terms when they decide to do so.

I'm glad the original poster won his case, because I think it's an abuse for police to prosecute people for doing things that are not illegal. But I get a little concerned when I see people posting what appears to be disregard for traffic laws because (fill in the blank.) These are probably the same people who cross double double yellow lines to use the commuter lanes when they think there are no police around to observe their conduct.

When society comes to a point where individuals decide which laws they think apply to them, and ignore the ones they don't like, things disintegrate.

I know you won't agree, and I respect your right to do so.

Len

I always appreciate and slow down when someone flashes their lights - it's a gut check.

I've got about 40 speeding tickets under my belt in numerous US states, so clearly your logic about getting fined is flawed.

Additionally I only have two low-speed single vehicle (motorcycle) wrecks in over 20 years of riding a motorcycle and having my drivers license. Both involved wet and very slick conditions (one I tried stopping in a puddle of antirfreeze and another a taxi came out of a side alley I was riding through and stopped within inches of me - I was on wet bricks and went down).

I've never had an accident in a car, never been hit by a car, never hit a car, and never had a claim on my insurance - despite 40+ speeding tickets.

I drive fast. Extremely fast, but also extremely careful, observant, and only in areas where it is feasable.

55mph on a deserted country road is asinine.

"Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it. "
Henry David Thoreau

Wow, no shades of gray here!

I don't see the point (or the need) to be name calling. I'll ride/drive the way I prefer and the rest of you will do the same. I have been known to speed from time to time but I pick and choose where, when and on road conditions with which I am comfortable. I never ride beyond my capabilities. If that makes me a lawbreaker ... then so be it. Some speed limits are really quite silly in my opinion.

However, I do agree with Jess that there is a much bigger principal involved here and that is ... the policeman gave munibonds a ticket based on a law which did not apply to the situation. That's it. End of story.

It was clearly an abuse of authority as well as a perversion of the "intent" of the law. The cop tried to be cute by playing the "semantics game" and he (quite rightly) lost!

So why all the fuss and going off on a tangent? Let's try to keep things in perspective.

Keep flashing Munibonds. I would bet that when you were pulled over, you were inclined to believe that FHP officer telling you that flashing your lights to warn other drivers was in fact, illegal. But what's amazing is that you didn't line up as one of the 100's of sheep before you, paying the $116 revenue enhancement-releasing them to go on their naive little way. It's important to question authority. Not every guy wearing a uniform and carrying a badge is a good guy.

We, in North Carolina are going through a major mess with the State Bureau of Investigation and the blood and DNA labs. Years of lying, withholding evidence and skewing testimony to help prosecutors win cases has come to light by a newspaper in Raleigh. That newspaper quite frankly reminds me of Mr. Munibonds. It is going to take decades and tons of money to get this all sorted out. Prisoners are lining up with civil suits, lawyers and release dates, salivating to get another day in court.

And if you want some real sleaze, google the NC State Trooper scandals that has every woman in the Tar Heel state afraid to stop for flashing blue lights coming from a gray cruiser.

Ya have to keep these guys honest. We pay their wages as taxpayers and they owe us not only an honest day's work, but to interpret the laws they enforce in the spirit that they were put on the books. Once the rules start bending to fit anyone's agenda it gets easier for them to do the next time. I know this is a bit of a stretch from the OP, but as Len noted, these threads take some crazy twists and turns.

I salute Munibonds and hope he keeps on flashing. And even more than that-that he keeps questioning the authority when it just doesn't smell right. Blind sheep make an easy target. It is about abuse of authority and everyone should should care.

Was excellent. And glad you put in the part about how we pay their salaries. They work for us.

Just because someone is in uniform does not mean they are a walking encyclopedia of the law. The officer may have heard it was illegal from another officer over the coffee pot. That officer may have heard it from another. Now that officer knows better.

Or it could be a concerted effort by that enforcement agency to pad their coffers - equally wrong.

Never said it wasn't. I was simply replying to the notion that warning motorists that there is radar ahead somehow makes the roads "safer" or "reduces speeding". May reduce apprehension of speeders, but probably very little more. At least based on my buddy's one time and limited first hand experience.

I agree fully that the officer was absolutely wrong in the application of the law. Whether he was abusing his authority or simply misinformed is not within my level of mind reading capability, so I will have to defer your yours.

Actually the OP framed it that way... No, they certainly don't. I am objecting very strenuously to using this as an opportunity to lecture everyone about speeding. The OP wasn't speeding. I wasn't speeding. Nobody here was speeding, and yet a few self-righteous individuals who believe they are morally superior to everyone else has taken this as an opportunity to lecture us -- all the people who weren't speeding -- about speeding.

So fuck that, and fuck y'alls moral superiority. I'm not interested in being lectured simply because the OP stood up -- and won -- against an abuse of authority.

Oh, you guys will love this! Read the blog and then the replies.

http://copnattitude.blogspot.com/2010/03/flash-speed-trap-ahead.html

Goodbye, Jess.

Being from the south, I think the plural of y'all is "all y'all".

That officer's attitude -- especially the bit about "not caring about published opinions" -- is one of the reasons people mistrust police officers. If we can't depend on them to have a good grasp of the law they are applying (or not deliberately misapply it) then why do they deserve our respect?

Correction accepted. I only lived in the south for six or seven years, so I'm a bit rusty.

That's what, the sixth or seventh time?

Seriously, if the right to lecture people who weren't speeding is that important to you, then you're in the wrong forum.

My thoughts exactly.

I especially liked Orin Kerr's comment on that blog:

Go Orin

So what He is saying is that I (and others) committed the crime of commenting on a tangential topic. But wait, I wasn't the first one, as we shall see now: My disagreement came at 12:59 pm MT, others came even later.

Conclusion: while it is okay for Him to go off on a tangent, it is obviously not okay for me and others to disagree with it. Nice.

I can only conclude that He missed the following two lines, which were the first lines of those posts he is referring to:

The dissenters' responses are not about speeding, they are about not warning violators so they get penalized and feel the pain for their violation instead of "getting out of jail free".

Question: is it against MV rules to have morals different from the forum owner's?

It's not the disagreement that I find so disagreeable. It's about telling other people what to do and how to live their lives and lecturing down to us as if we were children that I find disagreeable. I think my stance on that has always been fairly clear. You can have whatever morals you choose. When you start insisting that others share your morals or beliefs and/or lecturing us about our morals, you're no longer simply disagreeing.

I'm sick and tired of the ninny brigade, telling everyone else what they should think and how they should act. I'm done tolerating it. I will now be actively hostile to those who would presume to tell other people how to live their lives.

I hope that's clear.

Here you go, Arno: Just for you, Salima, and Len.

New Rules

So, this little sentence of mine: earned Your wrath? The rest of my first post couldn't have as it was simply disagreement, which you said you do not find so disagreeable.

My "wrath" was simultaneously aimed at several people, and I was responding to your query about having different morals. But if you really want something specific to claim as your own, then this will do nicely:

Thank you, I take that as a compliment. I still can't think of a better response to comment on your respective post.