Modern Vespa

It ain't great news if you are waiting on a Stella 4t to compliment your old 2t...

http://www.examiner.com/scooter-in-detroit/genuine-scooters-stella-4-stroke-update

and a bit more here:
http://community.motorcycleshows.com/_Genuine-Scooters-Stella-4t-Update/blog/2570592/151420.html

What a bunch of BS. If the errors are non mechanical and easily resolved they would not be shipping the entire batch back to India to be replaced by different bikes.

If Genuine/LML want to be, umm, genuine about this, why not state what those easily resolved issues are? The ones that make them ship the bikes back to India...

B.S.

Why don't you tell us. You seem to know it all already.

Does make one wonder why the first production run was not the same as what was submitted for approval? Innocent error or sloppy standards? Either way, since this was the "maiden voyage", one would think they would have put a bit of extra care into it. It's not like they couldn't have known what it was they submitted for approval.

As a result of the above, I would be hesitant to buy one until it had a year or more on the road.

jamesjohn-

I doubt desmo was claiming to know the faults involved. Just questioning why something being alluded to as being minor would result in every last machine being sent back to the factory and a new production run was being scheduled to solve the problem. The "fix" doesn't lend itself to seeing a "minor" problem.

I test rode one very recently. A 125 version. Felt really good - the increased weight made it feel much more stable and balanced than the 2t, and it had real low down grunt. Much less gear changing required, as it was happy to trickle along at low speeds in high gear. Felt deceptively fast too. 50mph felt remarkably refined.

I won't be buying one though. Urban London isn't really the place for shifting.

If you are referring to me, no I don't know what the issue is. But I do know that they would not be shipping all the bikes back to India to be replaced by different bikes if it was a non mechanical easily resolved issue...

I tend to agree with you, Des. Something definitely sounds fishy. I suppose, however, that if its an emissions compliance issue, the EPA (or whoever) is completely entitled to say, "No way, no how," in terms of the bikes entering the US. If they're stuck at customs, it would be quite an arduous task to undertake recall-type repairs on a (literal) boatload of crated scooters unlike if they were already on-road and just needed a whatzit replaced under warranty as part of recall.

Masala- I think you may have hit the nail on the head. This could be more of a US Customs/DOT/EPA issue that prohibits certain fixes to be applied in country, and means the original manufacturer is forced to apply them then reimport them.

This could turn out to be a fairly simple deal that Genuine is simply prohibited from touching because the scooters by law can't get released to them if they're in violation of import specs.

Let's hope so- it's been a lously year for news about scooters, and the Stella 4T was sounding like one of the bright spots....

Butt that's the thing, Genuine claims it's 'a non mechanical easily resolved issue.'
For arguments sake, let's say they are not allowed to touch the bikes in the US so they have to go back to India. Why aren't they then modified in India if it's a 'non mechanical easily resolved issue'?
Instead, they are providing different machines. Which begs the question, what happened to the 'non mechanical easily resolved issue' part?

A non mechanical issue is something like missing stickers (EPA, CARB, safety warnings etc),maybe cosmetics, maybe something that needs to be changed in the owner's manual. Everything else is mechanical.

Show of hands, have I quoted the 'non mechanical easily resolved' phrase enough?

Yeah, I'm sure it's some sort of DOT procedure that doesn't make any sense to anyone but them. They hold all the cards and usually have a heavy hand.

A non-mechanical issue could just be a part that needs to be swapped for a USA DOT EPA compliant items. Why new bikes, because it would be easier to fix the problem on the next run of bikes and crate them rather than un-crate the others, fix the problem part (or what ever it is) and re-crate them and send them. The bikes that are sent back will have their destination paperwork changed and sold somewhere else in the world that doesn't have to meet USA DOT EPA standards. It not the first time a company that supplies a product changes the design and doesn't tell anyone because it was better for their profit. Chinese manufacturers do it all the time and that is why they got caught at the border trying to get non-compliant scooters in. All those toys with lead paint didn't start out with lead paint, the manufacturer changed paint after no one was looking to increase their profit margin. It happens all the time. It is one of the faults having things manufactured in other countries.

I totally agree, but just for the heck of it, I'll play a little devil's advocate. Let's say the "non-mechanical" issue is that a certain emissions component - something like an evap canister - is not *stamped* (into the metal) that it is US emissions compliant with some arbitrary 17-digit approval number from the EPA. Maybe Genuine has the stamped canisters in-hand at their facility in India. Let's also assume - just for grins - that this dubious canister is installed at the very beginning of the assembly line and the rest of the bike is more or less built around it.

In that case, it might be quite easier (for Genuine) to just say, "Screw it - send us those back and we'll ship new ones," than to either 1) take them back, completely disassemble, reassemble, and re-ship to the US, or 2) do the disassembly, part swap, and re-assembly at the shipping yard in LA, Oakland, or NJ - wherever they are...

Obviously, this is just wild imagination on my part, but I could see something just that asinine holding up the whole process.

This seems absurd-howbout all the Giangudonaing drop-ship crap scoots-they're OK?
WTF!

i just mean this is all just alot of hot air. no body knows what the reasons are except Genuine and US Customs.

That and the man with the umbrella near the grassy knoll.

But I have said too much already.

I agree.

Genuine knows what the reason is. But they are not telling. A cryptic statement like, wait for it, 'non mechanical easily resolved issue' does not help their case.

An evap canister IS a mechanical issue. it is part of the evap system (duh!). If all it was, for example, is that it was missing an approval number then why not say that?

What's weird about this is that it is basically a single cylinder 4 stroke motor. There are lots of these basic designs in the US in other machines. Lots of them that easily pass emissions. Is it particularly hard to get a 4T motor to pass emissions? What was the reason that Vespa added FI to its 150 bikes? Was it emissions?..

So what's the hold up? Just tell us instead of being vague. Or is this just so they don't lose deposits and have those people go buy another brand of scooter?

Anyway, I'm out of this one. I've done my share of rambling and conspiracy theory mongering. It'll be an interesting next few months to see how this story changes. And changes.

From what I remember, the problem lies in the production machines not being the same as the pre-production model submitted for approval, to the degree that it effected compliance. Someone from EPA or DOT noticed that. For it to have been noticed, it had to be, well, noticeable.

We're talking 1,000 scooters, so total one way shipping costs back to India are $200,000 or more. That's a total of $400 per scooter in unproductive costs round trip to and from India, not to mention storage costs in the port.

Once solution could have been having the new configuration "approved", if that was possible. Probably trying to get the non-conforming deviation approved costs less than shipping 1,000 scooters back to India, but the time to have the new configuration approved (and resulting bonded storage costs) could have been an issue. Possibly faster (and cheaper?) to make a new production run and ship it (6 to 8 weeks?) than certify the erroneously made models.

Second solution, if the non-compliant issue could be fixed, would be to place the machines in bonded storage where they could be unpacked, corrected by Genuine/LML employees, inspected and released. Since each scooter might require inspection, that could also take a lot of time, and the bill for this could be quite heavy. Bonded storage is not cheap, especially where one can access the goods being stored. Been there.

Third solution would be to have the machines shipped to a bonded, certified motor vehicle compliance repair company. Also expensive and time consuming, but the repair company itself could release the scooters. Just not sure if the scooters could be labeled as EPA/DOT compliant in the "regular" manner, and how they would be viewed, let's say, in Calif.

So, all the humdee-woof above (not lecturing, Jess) was to show that it's a complex problem, and probably not simply one of a pencil pushing government bureaucrat having a bad day.

To me, what is most significant is that LML put their client at great risk by not conforming 100% to the original, approved design. My guess is that they did not do a full changeover from some other country's model to the Stella when they did the production run. Or, the scooters were not built to any LML standard at all (general quality failure). Either way, we're talking about goods that are usually subject to close scrutiny. Whether it was an "innocent" oversight or poor quality assurance, we are talking about the client's annual inventory, or close to it, being seriously flawed.

From a business standpoint, LML failed their client - big time. Could still be a good scooter, but a screw up of this impact makes one wonder how regularly LML makes other "minor" mistakes of dramatic impact.

Just another reason to buy a Vespa.

Honestly I can't see how Genuine can stay afloat.

I feel sorry for some of the good people I used to work with there.

I hope you aren't throwing stones at your former employer. They did not build the scooters, but simply found themselves with 1,000 hurricane level paperweights on their hands. Unless they agreed to the flaws in advance, or had an incompetent QA rep on site, it's more than likely an LML screw up. One reason LML has fallen a couple of notches in my opinion, not that I would or could (not sold here) buy a new, unproven product from them.

Since this has been said by Genuine to be an action of a US Federal Agency, then the details should be available to the public under the FOIA. Rather than waste energy speculating, perhaps some of the folks with time on their hands could get the real answer. But then, that would be less fun.

i would love to see a reissue P200 made in italy vespa. realistically, i do not know if enough people would want or could afford one in this economy.

In 1964, I bought a cherry 1962 VNB with just under 2,000 miles on it and rode it for 41 years, when I sold it when moving here. Owned and rode other Vespas and Lammys, but the VNB was my baby.

In 2007, I bought a cherry 2006 PX 150 with 3,000 km on it with the same objective, other than the moving part.

If Vespa reopened the 200 line, P, PX or whatever, I'd be very tempted to start all over again, this time with a new one. 150 would have to go, as there's not room for two. But what the hell, just a reason to live even longer.

let's just all be honest here.

they started one up to test the emissions, the whole thing fell apart.

who here is gonna really buy one ?????

Where was the stone thrown? Never bashed them whatsoever. Their own product quality does all the bashing on its own.

As I said, was only hoping. Since Genuine makes no products, who then would you bash?

Ah, proof positive of my late-adopter position. Believe me I was excited for this bike, but the closer it got to release the more I thought let's wait to see if it's really what it's cracked up to be.

Hope they work out the bugs and bring a good post-Beta version to market

Talking with someone today who I consider a reliable source who said it has nothing to do with the motor...it's all about reflectors and blinkers.....yeah, really. They are too low or misplaced or some other stupid reason. That's it. I also noticed they have PX style star wheels which is much better looking than the standard stella wheel.

You forgot about the one in the sewer grill...I've been to Dealey Plaza and after having dismissed that theory I can now readily see how one of the kill shots came from there. Do some research and you'll find numerous reports of a man with a rifle exiting a drain pipe near the rail yards.

Regarding the emissions issues: been there, done that. I have no knowledge firsthand or otherwise concering Genuine's testing, but the following are real life scenarios:

If there was a failure during testing, and depending on the type of failure they may have to start over from first of the beginning

If they passed the testing but it was later found that the imported bikes had changed in specification or equipment then the validation becomes instantly invalidated...doesn't matter if the bikes run cleaner, that wouldn't be the tested configuration which means they're not acceptable in EPA's eyes.

In this case they'd either have to retrofit the bikes to the approved configuration or re-certify them. The re-certification process may require the inventory be held in quarantine for X dollars a day which may have dictated their decision to ship the lot back to In-ja (spelt that way for our Brit buddies)

Bottom line is that doo doo occurs.

The Genuine quote from the OP's link states:

The production Stella scooters have "... errors that are not consistent with the original specifications provided to the EPA during the original certification process. The original specifications were not carried out properly in the first production run of Stella. The errors are non-mechanical and easily resolved".

Reflectors and blinkers are not an EPA, but a DOT issue. So, either Genuine is sloppy in their press releases or your source is.

Al

Nope. That would be a DOT issue. And they are in the same place as on the 2T Stella which has no problems selling here....

The front fender ones looked a little further back but that could be just me....and you're right, that would be a DOT issue.

Part of the problem lies in the fact that since 2005 and scooters changing class in the vehicle classification, NHTSA and the EPA have gradually clamped down on checking vehicles coming in for compliance to the original approvals. Now they do a 100% compliance test.

Part of it is due to the crappy chinese bikes that were being imported and part is just that they have realised how much larger the scooter market is and they don't want things slipping by them.

They've even cracked down on what is listed in the Part 565 database, which I swear they didn't even look at prior to 2005, it was such a mess.

So things that used to slip by them before are now picked up on as a major issue.

It could still be a tiny thing. For instance, some of the Ets were shipped to the US with the Euro headlight configuration. That wasn't a problem back then (unless you were in Jersey where the inspection stations would some time fail you for non-compliant lights. You'd solve it by going to a different inspection station). Now, there's no way that would get by NHTSA/EPA.

Its a tiny thing, but something like that could well be what derailed the 4T stella importation.

Andrea

I forgot, EPA regs. also cover the type of materials the vehicle is made from, even the vinyl the seat is made from. Its not just engine emissions. It all has to be declared nowadays.

-A

Phil was always great about telling employees to tell the truth.

Why not just come out and say what the real issue is? People are going to end up finding out one way or another.

Just FYI: Other manufacturers (Piaggio) have had bikes inspected and refused importation because emissions decals had the incorrect number printed on them......

What difference does it make? None of us are going to see this batch anyway.

To me it doesn't make a difference but there are a few people I know here on MV who have deposits on them and I'm sure would love to know. The comments above this also prove there are a whole lot of people that want to know too.

It makes a difference if you're a potential customer and you want to know you can trust the seller, in case of any issues that may arise later.

My point is this: Genuine didn't reject them. The US Gov't did. The gov't is not know for being the easiest entity to get info from. Maybe Genuine can't get the info either. Just sayin'

Are you saying that Genuine's "Great White Hope" was turned away at the port and Genuine accepted this without a reason being given? As I have posted before, a simple FOIA request would get the info.

Genuine claims to know enough to make their "no big thing" claim in their press release. They also claim to know enough to apply a fix. They just seem reluctant to share exactly what it was about these machines that deviated from the machines submitted for approval. According to Genuine, it's a deviation from what was originally submitted that caused the problem, not some heretofore unenforced or overlooked issue.

Al