Modern Vespa

Greetings Modern Vespa members,

I'm new to the forum and a complete novice to the world of scooters. After a great deal of research i've narrowed down my choice to the MP3 250/400 or the Yamaha TMAX. Now i'm sure most of you will be a bit biased but all advice, tips, and pointers are welcomed.

If it matters at all I am 6'3'' 200 lbs. The scooter will most likely be parked/locked/chained up(ya know, secured to deter scumbags) outside since I live in a city & don't have access to a garage.

My main concerns are storage space as I will be making grocery runs with the scoot; power/performance as I plan on taking trips on the highway once I get comfortable riding; and reliability/build quality as I plan to enjoy my future scooter for many years to come.

Ok that's it. Again any and all help is greatly appreciated. Thanks

You can't beat the storage space on the MP3s. If you will mostly be doing city riding and never want to go over 70mph then the 250 actually has the better (smoother, more responsive) engine. If you think you'll do much more highway riding then look at the 500. If you're going to have a top-box then the storage is almost the same and the 500 engine pulls the heavier scooter (the 400 and 500 are the same weight) better.

If a lumpy engine would really annoy you and you prize reliability, then the TMax probably has a better engine than the MP3 400 or 500. I've only ridden 250/400 and 500, though - not the TMax, but I know folk who love the TMax for it's performance and reliability (relative to Italian scooters).

As for safety - well 3 wheels are better than 2, but only in bad conditions. If you're going to be a fair-weather rider I don't suppose it will matter as much.

Whichever you pick, you're going to have fun though!

Two very different critters. Tmax is more of a sportbike sort of scooter,
and the MP3 is, well. an MP3--nothing else like it out there.
I have a friend in the 6 ft range who tried out one and he says the Tmax didn't fit him so good, so hopefully you will go sit on both if you haven't already.
I have another friend who owns a Tmax, and it seems there might be more maintenance if I recall correctly.
Its hard to beat an MP3 for functionality though, the ability to lock the wheels is endlessly useful. It makes things like pulling into a drive through bank, locking the wheels and doing your deposits, for instance, so easy.

Tmax is about 50 lbs lighter and has a bigger gas tank. About the same mileage. Tough decision, I'll admit. I was down to the exact same models. At 6' 3" you will really want to check the leg room. I am 6' and am already looking to modify the seat on the MP3 500 to create a bit more leg room. I decided on the MP3 because a local dealer was selling a 2009 brand new for $5500 just to get out of the product line. Other than that, they are very comparable. I do like the styling on the front end of the Piaggio though. But that's personal. Have fun!

I have a TMAX, but my wife has an MP3 250. I've ridden the MP3 a lot. The first issue for you will be comfort. As tall as you are, the MP3 will have far less leg room than the TMAX. I'm 5'11" with a 34" inseam. The MP3 is uncomfortable for me since my knees are practically at my chest.

Regarding storage, the stock MP3 (with no top case), has more storage, but because it's so shallow, it's difficult to fit a full face helmet in. In contrast, I can fit my full face helmet and my fully padded jacket in the under seat storage of the TMAX. I've been able to fit 2 6-packs, a gallon of milk, and a bag of groceries under the seat.

In terms of handling and performance, the TMAX out performs the MP3 in acceleration, top speed, and handling. The engine is mounted on the frame, so you don't have all of that unsprung engine weight bouncing around when you hit surface irregularities. Additionally, the front end of the TMAX is far lighter than the MP3 which makes cornering much more precise than the MP3. Even though the TMAX is 50 lbs. heavier than the MP3 250, it feels far lighter due to the heaviness of the MP3 front end.

The TMAX has fairly strong engine braking as well. The MP3 has next to none. This gives the TMAX a much more controlled feel to it and it means using your brakes far less. Going down steep grades on the MP3 feels like you're coasting down in neutral.

The TMAX has larger wheels (15" front and back). This adds to the cornering stability (more gyroscopic affect), the feel on rough roads, and tire longevity. The rear wheel comes off very easily for replacement. It is much less convenient on MP3 since the exhaust has to come off. Standard labor on an MP3 rear tire replacement is 1 hour minimum.

The TMAX also comes stock with a fairly tall wind screen. The down side of the wind screen is that it adds a lot of buffeting at the helmet. This is easily remedied by adding a laminar lip (~$80 or so). The lip actually improves high speed stability since it increases down force on the front wheel. It made an enormous difference for me.

Finally, the Yamaha dealer network is far larger than the Piaggio dealer network. That means, when you need some work done, thee's a much better chance that you'll have a dealer nearby.

The only advantage I'd give to the MP3 (after a considerable amount of time on both), would be added stability in strong cross winds. The MP3 is rock solid during high cross wind situations.

I just think the MP3 would be more handy, useful, to live with on a day to day basis. Using it only on week-ends and for kicking around may be a different judgement criteria. By the way, I think you can add a top case to the already available storage areas on the 250/400 configuration. You might just have to look at which dealer feels most comfortable to you.

I just moved from a TMax, first model, to a MP3 400.
Don't even try to compare the 250 with the TMax. Perfomance difference is too great to be compared. I would never buy an MP3 250.

Highway: TMax wins. The MP3 only reaches about 150km/h, the TMax would reach the 160 easely, 175 tops. The TMax engine is just superior. The 2 cilinders make a lot of difference... and I mean, A LOT! There is a great difference in getting to 120 in both. In MP3 you have to go, and go, and go a little more, while the TMax reach this speed almost instantly. Overtaking in the MP3 requires a lot of space, in the TMax you don't have to think twice, you just roll the throttle and.. done it!

City: MP3 wins. Specially in bad roads, sewer caps, trails, pot holes.... that front suspension is just something AMAZING. Very safe. However, I miss the power of TMax in traffic lights starts. The size of both bikes is similar, so spliting lanes is equal for both. Both are equally bad in doing reverse, however, the Tmax is more manouvrable due to the lower centre of gravity. Going from left to right, or right to left is much easier in TMax, too.

Others: MP3 has much less leg room than MP3. Also, the windshield is closer to you. The height of the seat is the same. MP3 has much more space under the seat. If you put a standard top case support, the trunk of the MP3 won't open all the way up. Plastics are of same quality, maybe TMax are marginally better.

Overall: I would like to have a TMax with two front wheels.

Hope it helped!

Phil

thanks so much for all the help and advice, you all are great. however i'm still torn! i love the idea of added stability with the MP3 3rd wheel, yet i love the apparent sporty performance of the TMAX. im in the process of getting my motorcycle license so i'll have to wait to test drive these scooters.

on the locking up/chain/securing aspect, the TMAX wheels/rims seem a bit easier to loop a security chain through, no?

again thanks for all the input, this is going to be a tough decision

Other than in cross winds and emergency braking situations, the MP3 doesn't offer added stability. The additional contact patch up front does not equal additional traction since traction/friction is dependent on the amount of pressure pushing down on a surface are, not the size of the surface area.

I think your best bet is to try both.

"on the locking up/chain/securing aspect, the TMAX wheels/rims seem a bit easier to loop a security chain through, no?"

The MP3 has a loop on the right side for a security chain.

My recommendation would be the Piaggio MP3. I would personally go with the 400cc if you would want a little more power with more storage or the 500cc if you would want to match size of the engine.

If you are looking at extended warranties my advice is to either get it and keep the warranty or if you are on the fence about getting a warranty, don't get it and then go through the process of getting a refund on it.

I had a Yamaha C3 before my Piaggio MP3 and I do have a bias against Yamaha as a result of cancelling my extended warranty. The Yamaha C3 was a great scooter for the size of scooter it is. It had great fuel economy and a good amount of underseat storage.

If you cancelled within the first 30 days there was no penalty, after 30 days I knew there was a $25 fee for cancelling plus a pro-rated fee on the time. I cancelled in the 31-35 day range after buying the scooter, I was to that I was going to receive almost all of it back. The extended warranty was around $250 and I received right around $81 back. How their calculations show that I would receive almost a full refund and end up with $81 is beyond me.

My advice from this is to read and understand all the warranty information, costs, actions that you have to do to maintain the warranty before you decide on what to do. I read through and understood the process of cancelling the extended warranty before I bought it and was shocked at what happened. All I have to say is that Yamaha has lost me as a customer, there are plenty of other manufactures out there.

$250 - 25 - pro-rated = we value as a customer, NOT

I was a new rider in may of 2007.
Having seen many motorcycle accidents, in my line if work, I chose the MP-3, due to the safety of the two front wheels. I would be less likely to "lay it down". In ten thousand miles, I have not put a scratch on me or anyone else. I think a scooter is a fun and convenience thing. I enjoy the run to the grocery store as well as flying around the curves if Lake Travis. I use it year 'round and often load the hook, under the seat, the trunk and the huge top box. For me, it is the MP-3 hands down. If my goal was to ride the highways out if the city, 90% of the time, I would buy a BMW 1200 RT Motorcycle. Ask yourself, if suddenly you are on top of grooved and rough pavement (about to be paved) which do you want under you?

I have riden both. Currently I ride a 250 Mp3 and love it. The main thing the T-Max offers is the ability to stretch your legs out forward. This would be the main plus for you . I'm 6ft. and just have enough room on my Mp3.

Scooters from Italy. Motorcycles from Japan!

Nuff said.

off topic
Tesseract. Does this means anything to you? For me it just seams that the motorcycles would like to have something from a scooter.

On topic:

Fuel consumption: MP3 wins. Tmax tank must have a hole in the bottom. Thirsty bitch (carburetor version, at least, but I've read that the injector versions aren't much better).

I have a 2009 TMAX. I record every fill up with fully.com. My average is around 52. If I go light on the throttle I have seen as high as 57. I believe that's comparable to the MP3 400/500.

I would agree, but you're forgetting when you dont have surface to put the pressure. With two wheels, the chances of having both wheels off the ground are much lesser than with a single wheel.
And, another advantage, each wheel follows a different path. If one wheel steps on sand (or oil, or a white wet road mark, or a slimy snail), maybe the other one won't. Thats enough to keep you off the ground.
The MP3 is much stable, in practice, and in theory, too.

Regards,
Phil

P.S. Cornering at high speeds is much stable on the TMax. The MP3 tends to wobble. But that's the frame, suspension and geometry of the bikes speaking, not the wheels.

That's not quite true. Right now, we're in the 2nd season in Illinois, (Winter & Construction), so when driving on rough roads, the extra wheel on the MP3 makes a HUGE difference. We get a lot of potholes and a lot of "Rough Grooved Pavement," where they basically scrape off the top layer of the road before they lay down a new layer of asphalt. On my old 2 wheeled bikes, It always felt like it was going to buck me off sideways. On the MP3, I don't even have to slow down.

It also makes a difference driving in the wind and on wet pavement.

pdubbs85, as others have said, the most important thing that you can do is to take a test ride. No matter what we say, your comfort should be the determining factor. Opinions and reviews may be good for helping you decide, but the determining factor needs to be what you will end up being happy with.

Mark

Last year the wife and I hit some the same type of road. It was like the top layer had been scraped off leaving a very rough, very grooved surface. We hit it at 65 MPH and didn't give it another thought. Have you ridden a two-wheeled vehicle on that type of surface to make a comparison?

From my experience with both bikes, the extra wheel up front is just an extra opportunity to hit something in the road. Also, when going over grooved surfaces, it's not a great feeling having both wheels track two different surfaces.

Thats exactly where the MP3 is great. One wheel compensate the other. Try climbing a kerb in a less than 45 degree angle with a normal bike. Now, do the same with MP3. No hassle. Just try it. It's amazing what 2 wheels can do. I just miss the lack of two wheels in the back. Maybe next year

Yes, I have experience riding on 2 wheels. I rode my Yamaha Vino 125 6k miles and my Harley about 9k miles before I got my MP3. The Vino frequently made me slow down when riding in construction zones because I felt like I was going to lose it at any second. On those same roads on my MP3, my throttle hand doesn't even budge.

Now, the difference in wheel size may make a big difference between the Vino and the TMAX because the Harley handled rough roads better than the Vino (or the cheap Chinese 50cc I had before it). I haven't ridden a TMAX, so I can't give the direct comparison that you can.

But like I said before, my opinion, along with everyone else's, should be taken with a grain of salt. And while they may influence the original poster's decision, it shouldn't make it for him...

Mark

If you ride year round and need protection from the weather, the mp3 250 with the comfort windshield is your best friend. How thoughtful of Piaggio! This is the primary reason that I chose the mp3 over the TMAX.

If you do lots of highway riding you'll love the MP3 for sheer tracking ability. I have a SYM RV250, and it gets pushed around on the highway, but for local trips it's my usual choice.

I think you would not fit on T-MAX. It's not for tall people.

I am 6'4'' ans there was no way I could fit my legs on T-MAX.

On MP3 it's manageable. I've done some serious touring with no problems (1000 miles in 2 days)

Not trying to sell anything here, but why are you tall people talking about modifying seats etc. instead of just putting footpegs on your scoots? That is frankly the cheapest and by far easiest solution (30 seconds on a /500/Fouco, five minutes on a 250-300-400).

To the OP, I have never ridden a Yamaha scooter but I will reinforce that in conditions you see all the time, such as the aformentioned rough/scraped asphalt, potholes, metal bridge grids, these are things that range from disconcerting to terrifying, even on a cruiser with big fat tires. On the MP3 you will not even notice them. I thought that highway truck traffic also had no effect - that's definitely true of a MP3/500 - but a new owner of a /250 in another thread commented that (perhaps due to lighter weight) she still gets tossed. On a /500 I do not even notice truck blasts, the first motorcycle I've ever owned that I can say that of. In both of these instances, the dual front wheels are the primary reason.

Another option is to look at the Aprilia Mana 850 GTS. It still very different than an MP3, but I would consider it over a T-Max.

I own an MP3 250 and have a gravel driveway. I feel very stable going up and down my drive with my scooter and have never dropped it. (and before everyone jumps on me, yes I know I can lose it in gravel). I wrecked twice on my drive with a Honda 650, so that has to say something about the extra stability with 2 up front wheels.
Recently I did a 2 hour journey on a 2 lane highway with my scoot. Oncoming traffic did not blow me around, not even semi trailers. But, as mentioned by rjeffb, dumptrucks did give me a bit of a blast! I still felt stable though, and would not want to imagine passing them on anything less than an MP3.
I am 5'11" and my husband is 6'1". I feel I have plenty room on the scoot as it is. He feels like if he could sit on the passenger portion of the seat, he would be more comfortable. I will be installing some footpegs soon, so we will see how that helps him to stretch out a bit.
Love my scoot and wouldn't trade it for the world!

TMAX gets better gas mileage, but the Mana is awfully sweet. Have you ridden one?

The two front wheels were the seller for me, on any bike particulary a scoot lighting up the rear wheel can be controlled sometimes BUT lose the front and you are down instantly!

The Fuoco's two front wheels are a joy, even when the rear steps out in wet corners the front stays planted to the extent there is fun to be had "drifting" known corners / roundabouts.

Regarding my post.. "Scooters from Italy. Motorcycles from Japan!", this was not to be taken analy, the scooter IS an Italian icon, no doubt the Japs made huge advances in motorcycles but their scooters are all modern day Vespa's whereas Vespa / Piaggio / Gilera have taken the humble scoot and re-invented it = Fuoco / MP3, sure if it was German or Japanese it would be more reliable but those silly sods are stuck in the dark ages when bikes could do 200mph and scoots fell over every week.

In my job I can ride an orrible 50cc sub £1K scoot or a superbike every day and to be honest it got boring, chasing 200mph was a weekly event and every scoot just felt nervous to me at 30mph so imigine my surprise to find the Fuoco, the ultimate "Milan" hooligan bike that sticks like poo to a blanket.

TMax, thats for yer Dad.

4 wheels moves the body
2 wheels moves the soul
3 wheels.........HEAVEN

If you lock up the front wheel(s) on any bike your probably going down. There've been a number of folks on this forum who've done so.

I know it's different strokes for different folks, but for me, I wouldn't ride any other scoot than the TMAX. The engine performance and handling blow almost every other scoot out of the water save the Burgman (which I've never been on). Even if engine performance were identical, I'd still go with the TMAX due to the handling. I'm saying this after spending a lot of time on both my wife's MP3 and my TMAX.

On the other hand, try doing this with an MP3. I had a sportsbiker crack a joke on me about a scooter's inability to do this, and it would have been worth having a TMax just to see his jaw drop (although in truth I would be too chicken to ever actually try it).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUIiAOMsbaw&NR=1

Um...I'm pretty sure mine won't do that. Need a new variator and exhaust. Probably $1500 minimum in upgrades. Would be really cool, though.

+100

I had a 2009 TMax and sold it in order to get a 2010 Piaggio BV500 Tourer.

Biggest mistake I ever made.

The BV is a fair scoot but a real thumper. It has the same engine as in the MP3 500. As I say, a real thumper.
The TMax is a smoother machine in comparison, and far superior in performance and handling.

If I can ever unload the BV, I will get another TMax.

"lock the front wheel/s" Why would you want to do that?

Re the vibration. There is no doubt the Fuoco / MP3 500 is a thumper as that is what it is. The Tmax "twin" has terrible vibration problems, dont take my word for it, go google

So I don't put massive mileage on either scoot, I alternate my scooters on a regular basis. The ride on my mp3 is far less bumpy then it is on my RV250 by a long shot. I can easily judge this since I ride on the same roads with each scoot.

???????????????
I had one for 5 months, a 2009 model and had no vibration to speak of. Especially when compared to the BV500.

This is a very silly thread really, the two bikes are not designed to compete with each other.
I do not think most people bought an MP3 with wheelies in mind, or thinking they would win races on it. Pleeze!
If you want a near sport bike/scooter you should get a Yamaha.
I just have issues with anyone trying to discount the actual virtues of the MP3, that just strikes me as nonsense. But everyone is entitled to what ever they want to think.
Just one question then for those that think it is of no benefit. If you knew for a fact you would have a front blow out at 75 mph when you chose a bike to ride today, and the MP3 and the TMax were in the driveway--tell me which you would ride off on??

I want three wheels.

I'm actually finding this a very interesting thread. Having ridden for nearly 3 years on MP3 250 then 400 now 500 I am still tempted by the TMax.

Things that really annoy me about the Fuoco/500: -

1) Things keep going wrong. It's an Italian machine.
2) The single cylinder engine is a grumbling, moaning bitch on take-off and low speed.
3) The stock transmission is poor. Acceleration is lumpy at take-off and on/off at low speed.
4) It's very heavy. The speed is not what 500cc should give.

I think the TMax solves all those issues, but, things I love about the Fuoco/500: -

1) It *is* safer. I can see some aren't convinced, but until you've ridden over a bottle/gravel patch/wet drain cover/etc/etc to no effect maybe you can't appreciate it Two wheels doubles your chances, it's as simple as that.
2) It *is* more stable. I've taken a wet roundabout too fast and slid all three wheels but still felt stable. Some folks drift it on purpose knowing as the rear slides around the front will stay stable and planted. Even leaning, a tripod is more stable.
3) It is practical *and* fun. Lots of storage options, lots of weather cover and you can still pull some Gs.

The TMax is beaten in those areas.

I haven't yet tried a TMax, so maybe the performance and reliability has the safety and all-roundedness beaten - I'll let you know.

Most of those issues, I at least, have ironed out on the 500 with a few mods--(of course you don't need to mod the Yamaha). Mine has no grundles, (Jcosta), and good speed (air intake filter mod and pipe). Still a heavy thing though! But fairly comparable to others in its class, within reason. The front just weighs more.
Its just when comparing the MP3 to a Tmax, I am reminded a bit of the youtube where those New Zealand sport bike kids took a 250 mp3 out and rated it against their sportbikes. Its not a 600cc sportbike of course, so it was a very silly comparison.
True, both the Tmax and MP3 are at least scooters, and both 500cc,but beyond that they are two different entities. One was designed to be a near sportbike, and the other was not. If Piaggio had a sportbike scooter, then comparisons would be reasonable to make to a Tmax. Compare it to the Gilera 800 perhaps.
The MP3, I think, was designed to be an urban assault sort of vehicle, and at that it does very well. It just happens we also expect it to do a whole lot more ( handle twisties, go fast, and tour on it too). It does a lot of those things pretty well, but not one of them perfectly. As you said, a good all-rounder.
Now if you compared the French 3 wheel version to the Italian ( did the French actually get that one on the market? I do not recall), you would be comparing apples to apples. And that would make more sense to me.
I would not mind having a Tmax in the garage alongside the MP3, as they are different enough to be nice compliments. I would still think about front wheel blow outs and the like when I rode it though--the MP3 has spoiled me in that regard, and I would always be looking for the tilt lock as well, but thats just me.