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@bagel avatar
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@bagel avatar
2010 Vespa GTS 300, 2007 Vespa GTS 250, 2007 Vespa GTV, 2010 Stella 4T #3, and a bunch of broke down vintage scoots
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UTC quote
I've been remiss in posting about my recent mishap and some people have been asking what's up, so here's the lowdown. Last Tuesday, I had just left my house and was riding down a street in my neighborhood on my 300 Super, when a woman pulled out from a side street without looking, directly into my path. The road curves to the right where I was riding, and the side street was on the right side, so it is difficult to see around the curve from that vantage point. I wasn't traveling particularly fast, it's a 25 mph zone, but the driver definitely did not look to her left as she was pulling out, as I was already coming around the curve. I hit my brakes, the front wheel locked up, the front end went into a violent shake, and the bike went down, landing on top of my right ankle and ended up sliding along the ground with my foot pinned beneath it. My right foot got pulled around so that the left side of my boot got shaved down by the pavement, giving me a bad sprain and I got a nice patch of road rash on my right knee. My right side got a decent whack when I hit the ground, particularly my shoulder. However, I thankfully did not hit her car, and I did not break anything. That was the thought that raced through my mind as I lifted the bike off my leg, 9 days before I was planning to leave for Vancouver, "please don't be broken!"

Fortunately, the woman was at least conscientious and did not flee the scene, but instead she got out and helped me and the bike up. A bystander who saw the incident ran and got me a glass of water and some ice in a towel for my foot. I took my shoe off and was relieved that I was able to move my foot and feel my toes, and that I didn't feel anything grinding inside there. The driver and I exchanged insurance info and I rode myself to the doctor, which was only a mile from there. They cleaned and bandaged me up, took three x-rays of my foot and confirmed that nothing appeared to be broken or fractured, gave me a brace and sent me off to pick up some prescriptions, then rest and ice my ankle at home. I did capture the whole thing on video, but I haven't had a chance to edit it yet. That may need to wait until I'm up in Vancouver, I still have too much to do, to get ready for the trip up there and the Cannonball.

Over the last 6 days, I've made a remarkable recovery and I'm up and walking around again, though my ankle is still a bit tender. It's still showing some pretty funky colors too, though that's no surprise after what it went through. My clubmate Rich (glassaye) gave me this kick ass ankle brace that he used after he had a similar incident a couple years ago, and it's worked wonders at getting me moving and getting my ankle working well again. Although the spill has slowed me down, it hasn't knocked me out, far from it. I'm still planning on leaving for Vancouver on Thursday and riding in the Cannonball the following week.

As for my Super, the majority of damage is easily replaceable: mirror, crash bar, legshield trim, front fender, windscreen, brake lever, topcase, etc. The only point where the metal of the frame touched the ground was the underside of the frame, just below the front curve of the floorboard, where it has about a 2" scrape. Major props to the FACO crash bars for doing their job and protecting that right cowl from any damage to those fancy fake vents!

The thing that still gets me is why my bike went into such a violent shake that threw me during an otherwise normal low-speed panic stop. Was it the pavement being slightly slick on a hot day while the tires were still cold, since it happened only 1/2 mile from my house? Could it be that the front shock is worn out after only 15,000 miles? Maybe the headset bearings have gotten a bit loose and need to be tightened? All of the above? True, I hadn't had my coffee yet so perhaps I wasn't as alert as I could have been, but I don't feel that my reactions to the situation were out of the ordinary, and I certainly did not expect that kind of a violent wobble and be thrown the way that I was. Has anyone else experienced anything like this before? If so, what information can you share about your experience that might help me understand what happened here?
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UTC quote
Re: Back on that horse
bagel wrote:
I hit my brakes, the front wheel locked up, the front end went into a violent shake, and the bike went down,
You don't have to ask what the mistake was, you've just stated it. Huge sympathies BTW for the sore bits.
Quote:
True, I hadn't had my coffee yet so perhaps I wasn't as alert as I could have been, but I don't feel that my reactions to the situation were out of the ordinary, and I certainly did not expect that kind of a violent wobble and be thrown the way that I was. Has anyone else experienced anything like this before? If so, what information can you share about your experience that might help me understand what happened here?
Expect those drivers to be doing that, especially from blind city turnings, so ride in the middle of the road so you have some chance to do avoidance manouvers, and DO NOT hit the brakes so hard that you lock up, and DO practice how to get out of a lock-up if that should sadly ever happen again.

(Modulate the brakes is the answer, or buy a bike with ABS if you're not much good at that - some aren't, it's not everybody's easy skill.)
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UTC quote
BAGEL glad you weren't hurt worse Have fun in the CannonBall and ride safe. 8)
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UTC quote
JimC was very subtle, but the point is that when your wheel is locked, there is no way to predict what will happen.

Key is to fight the natural reaction to just grab'n'squeeze. The front wheel needs to keep turning so you can keep steering.

Crap happens. Hope you feel better soon.

P.
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UTC quote
I suspect you were partly turning and grabbed a handful of brake. That seems to be what these scooters do when you do that. I had to brake suddenly, due to my own actions, while going in a straight line and doing about 60mph. The front end starting wobbling and was really unbalanced. Luckily, I had slowed enough so that I could gently and slowly ease off the brakes to regain stability.

I really hate blind areas. It always makes me incredibly nervous. I tend to slow down and be prepared to maneuver or stop. Go wide as well.

Jim's right about the practice. I am a little chicken to do it though, because I don't want to damage/drop my bike. I guess it's better to drop my bike some than to get injured. However, the last time I had to get my bike painted, it was out of commission for 2 months. Plus, I am not real sure if I could get the brakes to lock up if I tried. I am sure rereading Proficient Motorcycling would be helpful too.

Sorry to hear that you and the bike got banged up. I am glad to hear that it wasn't a deal breaker for Cannonball. Good luck, heal fast, and have a good time.
⚠️ Last edited by soniam on UTC; edited 1 time
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UTC quote
Bagel,
I know you're a much more experienced rider than many of us here, so I am certainly in no position to lecture you about what you should have done, or to practice.
I'm just glad you weren't hurt worse. The Cannonball sounds like a wonderful opportunity. Have a ball and ride safe.
OP
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UTC quote
True, but that's the strange thing... I've had to make short stops thousands of times, and I didn't think that I grabbed the front brake that hard this time; I know the difference between braking hard and pinning the lever to the bars. I'm very aware of the dangers out there on the road and I anticipate them when I ride every day. I did actually try to modulate the front brake, but that wasn't until it had already locked up, but the violent shaking it went into was completely unexpected and I simply couldn't maintain control of the bike once that started. I ride daily and I'm quite proficient at riding a GTS, though perhaps it would do me good to invest in some advanced training for more extreme circumstances, as that's something I've never encountered before. However something just seems out of place with the way my bike went into such a violent shake. My question was meant more to figure out exactly what caused that shaking and how to avoid it in the future. I suspect that it was not due solely to the front wheel locking up, but that some other factor came into play under those hard braking conditions which caused the bike to go into a violent wobble like that. I'm interested to find out what could have contributed to that, in order to avoid a recurrence in the future, for obvious reasons. I'll have to look at the video again to find out if i was leaning or turning at all when it occurred.

Thanks for the well wishes everyone, I appreciate it. I'm very thankful that it wasn't worse and that I've been able to recover as quickly as I have!
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UTC quote
That sucks Bagel.

Healing mojo sent your way.

Good luck on the Cannonball!
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UTC quote
Tom, glad you're okay. That could easily have been a gnarly crash. Hope you heal fast and you and your scoot are in good shape for the CBR. Ride safe, dude.
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UTC quote
I was really surprised that my scoot wobbled and shook so much. I posted on here and got the response that they are just unbalanced and will do that under hard braking.

You might try going to the track. I know that I feel incredibly comfortable in all sorts of unstable conditions in my car, due to my track experience. I often specifically take sandy or gravely turns, brake hard, or try to get the tires to break loose on my car. I love knowing that I can and will be able to recover. I just wish I was at that point on my scooter

Check the tread on your tires too. Keep the shiny side up.
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UTC quote
Bagel, I'm really glad things weren't any worse than they turned out to be, and I admire your spunk in not letting the incident deter you. Good luck in the Cannonball and keep the rubber side down.
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UTC quote
Very sorry to hear about the lady pulling out in front of you,
Happy you didn't hit her also. Take care of youself Bagel. 8)
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UTC quote
Glad to read that it wasn't as bad as it could have been for you and your scooter.

I've only ridden 9,000 miles on my scooters to date and only in a year. I've got no place suggesting to you or any other experienced rider what better to do.

Good luck on the Cannonball.
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UTC quote
Bagel:
Glad to hear that you are (relatively) okay and the damage wasn't worse.

Hopefully the inattentive but conscientious driver's insurance will make your 300 tip-top again.

Seems to me that this is another incident that could have been avoided (or at least had its severity reduced) with ABS brakes. Not sure why Piaggio would develop the system but not offer it as an upcharge in the US. As Jim said, not everybody (including me) is perfect with brakes in a panic situation, and ABS is a great way to bridge that gap.

You mention a topcase . . . was it full or empty? The front end telemetry of the large frame Vespas are susceptible to speed wobble--I'm guessing that the panic braking shifted the weight forward compressed the front suspension to the "magic" rake/trail position to set off the wobble.

Have you experienced anything resembling front end wobble on that particular scoot in the past (no matter how faint)?
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Glad you're okay Bagel. I admire you for continuing on to Vancouver. I think many people would have their confidence shaken too much to do that. I'm sure mine would.
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Glad to hear that you survived the crash and that you're getting better.
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UTC quote
stinkyjones wrote:
You mention a topcase . . . was it full or empty?
Good point - the Hornet will shake like a demon if the top-case is fully loaded, both under acceleration and when braking. Under acceleration it isn't so bad, as you 'ride through it', but the braking induced shakes were quite alarming. Always between 20-30 (0r 30-20) mph.
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UTC quote
Wow glad you are mostly ok. Could have been much worse. Good luck cannonballing.
OP
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UTC quote
jimc wrote:
stinkyjones wrote:
You mention a topcase . . . was it full or empty?
Good point - the Hornet will shake like a demon if the top-case is fully loaded, both under acceleration and when braking. Under acceleration it isn't so bad, as you 'ride through it', but the braking induced shakes were quite alarming. Always between 20-30 (0r 30-20) mph.
Yep, that's about the speed I was going, but my topcase was empty at the time, and I had the heavier bar end weights installed. My Super does give a little of the typical GTS wobble in that speed range if I loosen my grip on the bars while decelerating, but the wobble is less pronounced than on my 250. The tires don't have a whole lot of miles on them, maybe 2000 miles or so, and they're Heidenau K61s, so I don't suspect that they contributed to the incident, other than being cold. I still suspect that the steering column bearing may be loose... that's something I've meant to check for a while now, but haven't had the chance to take headset apart yet. I hadn't noticed any looseness before the crash, but I did feel a bit of a shimmy in the front end since then. Could anyone confirm my suspicion that a loose headset bearing could cause that kind of a violent shake to occur under hard braking?

I'm sure that ABS brakes would have helped avoid this situation as well, they would have at least prevented the front wheel from locking up. Anyone's guess is as good as mine why they don't offer it on the models they sell in the US, it seems like a pretty shortsighted move to me. However, I don't know what kind of regulatory hoops they'd need to jump through in order to have the system approved for use in the US, or what kind of roadblocks there could be. However, from a safety standpoint, I don't see why the DOT would have a leg to stand on, to refuse those systems to be sold on bikes here.

And again, thanks for all the well wishes and kind thoughts everyone, they're much appreciated!
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UTC quote
Sorry to hear of your spill Bagel. Thanks for sharing and I am glad it was fairly minor for you and your scoot.
Was the video helmet or bike mounted?
OP
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UTC quote
Thanks Boulty! It was bike mounted, on the left handlebar. Got a nice close-up shot of the pavement as I was sliding too.
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UTC quote
As a follow up, I'm curious--do you think you would have went down if the front end had not started shaking?
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UTC quote
Thom,

I think may be on to something with the loose headset bearings. My bike, the Kymco, had nasty head shake for the last 15,000 KM during the deceleration between 40 and 30 MPH. I thought it was caused by the moderate to severe cupping I had on my front tire but it was manageable by pressing forward on the handlebars and was never a safety issue for me. I recently changed the front tire.

After I changed the tire, I started noticing a "clunk" when I started braking. It was very slight; but there very time. Before the trip to Guerneville, I took ALL the bodywork off the bike and looked at the head set. Both the top nut and lock nut were finger tight. I tightened up the top nut and lock nut and during the 450 mile ride, I never noticed any wobble. I was very fortunate my neighbor had bicycle headset wrenches.
OP
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UTC quote
stinkyjones wrote:
As a follow up, I'm curious--do you think you would have went down if the front end had not started shaking?
Absolutely not, I've been through countless panic stops like that before without an issue. Something went very wrong this time, and I was caught completely off guard, which is why I went down. That's why I'm so intent on figuring out what caused the violent shake to occur... I do not want to go through that again!

Thanks for the tip, Guy. I won't have time to check out the headset bearings before I leave on the Cannonball, but I'll check them out the first chance I get.
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UTC quote
bagel wrote:
Thanks for the tip, Guy. I won't have time to check out the headset bearings before I leave on the Cannonball, but I'll check them out the first chance I get.
I can completely understand. I don't know how much you need to remove to get to the headset on a modern Vespa but my Tupper-mobile REQUIRED that I take every single, stinking, piece of plastic off the scoot except the front fender, air filter cover, and the under floor pan.

I did need to remove the seat, under seat bucket, the rear fender, both side skirts, both frame covers, the floor boards, the front fairing, the front under cover, the rear of the front fairing, wind screen, windscreen brackets, mirrors, and all pieces of the headset.
OP
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UTC quote
Wha?? Jeez! Kymco's standing just dropped a few points in my book... all that work just to remove the headset cover?? That's insane! On the Vespa, I just need to remove the windscreen & the front and rear covers. I've been putting it off though, because I have a bunch of work I'd like to do while I'm in there, and I'd need a whole day to do it (brake levers, HID, heated grips, remote garage door opener, Stebel horn, painting the speedo ring, etc). However, I think I may go in there to check the headset bearing before I continue to ride it, and maybe do a couple of the other upgrades while I'm in there.
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2010 Dragon Red GTS 300 Super, 2018 Grigio Titanio Piaggio Liberty S 150
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UTC quote
Bagel, sorry to hear about your accident. I hope your injuries especially your ankle heal quickly and don't impede your progress in the Cannonball. Here's to a non eventful Cannonball Run.
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I guess its because the handlebars are y shaped with a shaft that goes down into the bodywork and behind the radiator with a tube that bolts to the top of the steering shaft and then into the headset proper. The silver bolt is the one that connects the two and it below the top of the fairing. The locknut, shown at the bottom of the photo, is about 2 inches below the top edge of the back of the leg fairing.

The headset cover plastics are above that and come off with about four bolts once the the mirrors and windscreen are off.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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UTC quote
jimc wrote:
stinkyjones wrote:
You mention a topcase . . . was it full or empty?
Good point - the Hornet will shake like a demon if the top-case is fully loaded, both under acceleration and when braking. Under acceleration it isn't so bad, as you 'ride through it', but the braking induced shakes were quite alarming. Always between 20-30 (0r 30-20) mph.
I've never experienced shake of any kind on my GT, even though the topcase is often loaded up well above the recommended weight limit mind you jim's topcase is the size of a small armchair

back to the topic at hand: bagel - i'm glad you're okay. sorry i can't provide any insights into the reason for your crash, but i'm happy to hear that it's not discouraged you from participating in Cannonball - that's hardcore
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UTC quote
Glad you were not put out of comission for the Cannonball!

Heal fast and have a great safe Ride!

G
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UTC quote
bagel wrote:
stinkyjones wrote:
As a follow up, I'm curious--do you think you would have went down if the front end had not started shaking?
Absolutely not, I've been through countless panic stops like that before without an issue. Something went very wrong this time, and I was caught completely off guard, which is why I went down. That's why I'm so intent on figuring out what caused the violent shake to occur... I do not want to go through that again!
This scares the hell out of me.
I have wobble, but it's not cropped up during a panic stop.
Certainly makes me reconsider what I am riding.
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Location: SoSanJo CA
UTC quote
genie wrote:
... but i'm happy to hear that it's not discouraged you from participating in Cannonball - that's hardcore
And that's only HALF of the story . . .
Nerd emoticon

Hasta mañana.
@lostboater avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Vespa LX150 GTS250ie GTS300x2 sold 'em
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2380
Location: St. Pete, Fla
 
Ossessionato
@lostboater avatar
Vespa LX150 GTS250ie GTS300x2 sold 'em
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2380
Location: St. Pete, Fla
UTC quote
Bagel,
It might in your replies but the martini's have set in. The only critical question is can you make the Scootercannonball run?????!!!!!!!!
@mrzip avatar
UTC

Addicted
Joined: UTC
Posts: 576
Location: Portland, OR
 
Addicted
@mrzip avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 576
Location: Portland, OR
UTC quote
Glad you're OK and good luck on the cannonball!
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