Modern Vespa

Firstly, a little about me and my ET2 50cc....

I'm a car driver who until recently has never ridden anything on two wheels....until a couple of months ago when I bought an ET2 (photo below) - I chose a 50cc because of the riding laws in the UK, and to make sure I was definitely interested in Scootering before I took my full bike test and bought something bigger, but I must admit i'm already hooked and have since bought a PK125 to restore and use after taking my test on when restored.

I'm enjoying the ET2 so much in the meantime, that rather than selling it and just keeping the PK125 when its restored, i'm planning to run both as they are both fun in their own way.

So here it is....

My 50cc Challenge

The low speed of the 1997 carburetor ET2 makes me wonder how fast I could get it to go without spending much cash on it.

When I picked it up it had been sat for about 8-9 years in someone's garage unused (non-runner, needed a bit of TLC to get it going and to get it through the MOT) and after I'd checked it over and got it running it topped out at about 29-30mph.

I removed the variator washer next and took the small tube off the exhaust and it now runs at 38-40mph tops, 30mph up hills.

I've got my hands on a cheap second-hand Gianelli exhaust off a Zip (Damaged front pipe) and plan to mod the bracket and tube to get it to fit and then I guess I need to change the rollers on the variator and I 'm hoping it will get up to about 50mph on the flat.

So....what are your thoughts on getting a fast top end out of the scoot, what could i expect without spending too much cash?

So what are our thoughts?

On the 50cc, there is probably nothing you can do to get 50mph, that is an honest 50mph. You could probably invest heavily in kitting the engine, but I still doubt you could get 50 (honest). Understand that Vespa speedometers read 10% or more high.

On the scoot your are stripping, that isn't 50% done, not close.

Just thoughts.

Anything short of dropping a 150cc engine
in and you would be wasting your money.
50cc's are not meant to go fast. 8)

A 70cc kit isn't very expensive and should get you an honest 50-55 mph.

Yes thanks for those thoughts - very helpful - but don't you think its a great challenge??

- what are the bets on how fast i can get it to go with/without kitting and without spending a massive amount of money on it??

I'm betting... not quite fast enough

Yes I think you may be right - i'm hoping it gets up to 45 on the flat - anything above 45 and its definitely a bonus !!!

About what it does now.
I used to have a speedfight 50 which was a derestricted liquid cooled engine and that did about 50 on the flat. It was a lot lighter than your ET2, and produced more power.

To go faster you'd need to fit a larger barrel and piston, replace the exhaust, do some work on the variator and you'd still be slower than an ET4 125

Other than derestricting it, there *really* isn't much point in spending a lot of cash

If you want to go down the increased CC route cheaply, ive got a malossi iron 70cc kit with about 1000km on it, includes head... Works well with a reverse pipe 8)

You won't get a full bike licence on a PK as it's not fast enough , You will get a up to 125cc licence

The practical test must be taken on a bike of between 75 cc and 125 cc. There are two types of full motorcycle licence:

a light motorcycle licence (A1), which restricts riders to any bike up to 125 cc and a power output of 11 kW
a standard motorcycle licence (A), is obtained if the practical test is taken on a bike of over 120 cc but not more than 125 cc and capable of at least 100 kilometres per hour (km/h per hour)..

Yes, I was thinking about that - I'll maybe use a bike from the test centre close to where i live, they don't charge too much to use their bikes - i'm guessing this will get around the problem????

Before I bought the ET 4 I test drove an ET 2 that someone here had on sale and was getting 40-42mph on the flat in Houston but we are at 40' elevation and pretty darned flat.

That particular scoot had been derestricted since 50cc scoots here have a rev limiter on them to keep them at or below 30mph. No other modifications had been made to it. Since the road a block from my house has folks going 45 and another not far away is 50mph posted I decided that it wasn't safe not being able to go those speeds and went with a 150cc.

i knew of an italjet dragster with a 70cc kit and itd do 60mph.... was tune ti the tits ... it was a real redlight scoot i had a quick go and shat mesen ... had to give it back

Thought it was possible to buy a gear up kit?

Tell me about " A Gear-up Kit" is this a change to the gearing to give a higher top-end speed? - how does it work and how much do they cost??

Thanks

With a piaggio engine you have a few options...

A primary gear kit, which changes the primary gear shaft and intermediate gear to a different ratio...

You can also get a secondary gear up kit which changes the output shaft and it's intermediate gear to a different ratio...

If you running big power then you can fit both together...

And finally you can get over-range variator kits that come with oversize pulleys and longer belts to maximize that gearing... But you will loose electric start option.

Normally just fitting a primary kit will be all you need.

This is not true - I hit near 40mph GPS (43mph indicated) on an entirely stock ET2 except for a mild performance pipe (Leo Vince SP3). A cast iron 70cc kit is obtainable from scootermercato for only $170. Couple that with an exhaust like mine and I think you would hit 50 GPS. And that's really pretty cheap/mild tuning.

Now, to get a 4-stroke 50cc to 50mph would cost much much more. For example, 4Ts do not respond to performance pipes nearly as much as a 2T would.

That's a lot more encouraging to hear!! - i'm sure i can get it to above 50 if i really try - and use all of our combined experiences and know-how!!

Ok - so here's an update to my 50cc challenge

First thing i've done is fitted a Malossi 70cc kit and up-jetted to an 83 in the standard 12mm Weber Carb.

The difference in performance is now immediately obvious - acceleration is more responsive, and performance up hills is similar to that on the flat, so I can now do 40mph or very close on virtually any road..... on the flat it hits about 42-43 now (indicated)

Next step is to modify the gianneli exhaust I've had off a 70cc Zip - the downpipe is damaged so I've got to find one somewhere

Any ideas anybody??

Great Fabio! I suspect that with a 70cc + Exhaust, you may want a larger carb. I know it isn't necessary for one or the other, but I bet the wee 12mm will become a bottleneck in the system with the other two in place. I don't know from personal experience, just my own musings on the issue

Good luck fitting the exhaust - I'd love to see pics of the progress

My Typhoon, with a 17.5 Deloroto carb, goes around 55 mph.....
You can find these carbs everywhere in London, since a lot of kitters move up to 21 mm carbs and up....
Good luck fitting that exhaust on an ET....Most use a SP3 or similiar one piece exhaust that will fit with out cutting into the body.....

Yeah, you probably want a carb with a nominal 17-19mm throat diameter. A 12mm carb is almost certainly limiting your top speed.

I used an Arreche 19mm on my old kitted Vino. Good, simple, trustworthy carb available everywhere.

Still running the stock ET2 exhaust at the moment, but hope to get the Gianneli in action soon and then I'm on the look out for a cheap and suitable carb.

The challenge I set myself was to see how fast i could get little Fabio to go without spending too much cash on him so I've changed my signature to include a running total of the costs vs mph........

Latest 50cc challenge update............

Giannelli Frankenstein exhaust now fitted, just finished it tonight.



I located a Giannelli that had a damaged downpipe that came off a kitted Zip, it hadnt had much use when the owner bumped it up a kerb and cracked the front/down pipe. £5 it cost me.

Last night I cut out the damaged piece of downpipe and made up a new one with parts of exhaust pipe that I scrounged from a local car dealer, they very kindly let me have some pieces of pipe cut from a nearly new exhaust that had been returned by a customer and was ready to be disposed off.... the bore of the exhaust was virtually identical to that of the Giannelli. I cut and trimmed and chopped until the exhaust pieces seemed to fit together well, then I tack welded the pieces together and offered the exhaust up to the scoot (picture attached), all seemed to go well, I had to remove some of the pieces and keep trying them until I got the best fit, and then I tack welded a little more when I was happy with the fit.

Today at lunchtime, the exhaust went down to our local friendly back street garage and one of the mechanics oxy-acetylene welded it all into place for £10.

Came home tonight from work and fitted the newly welded-up pipe, had quite a job to get it set up but managed it ok - had to mod the bracket a touch to get good bodywork clearance, but I'm proud to report its now fitted on and seems to fit perfectly (picture attached of it fitted). Just needs a small splash of PJ1 ceramic high-temp paint to finish it off.

Shot it around the block to test it and after blowing out the cobwebs noted a very good response performance wise. Better acceleration again and a bit more top end - didnt manage to give it a good run but on a steep hill where I used to get about 37 with the kit I now get 41 so it seems like i've moved forward again. I'll take it for a long run tomorrow in the daylight to test properly.

I'm still running the 12mm Weber at the moment but I think I've located a cheap 17.5 Dellorto on the net that I'm going to get with any luck, I've also bought some lighter rollers which i'm going to try too. I think I'll try the rollers with just the exhaust first and then add the new carb when it lands all being well.

I'll post the new top speed tomorrow when I've tested the exhaust out more fully - but as far as cost goes I've now added another £15

You can get an additonal 5mph or so with a fly screen. I've taken the fly screen off of my kitted lx and it no longer pegs the speedo. I guess your pushing a lot of wind above 45mph.

!!!!! I'd never thought of that !!!!! - what size screen have you got??

Infact - what size screens are there available for the ET2/ET4???

"!!!!! I'd never thought of that !!!!! - what size screen have you got??

Infact - what size screens are there available for the ET2/ET4???"


Vespa OEM fly screen. I'm not sure where you can find one, but a google search indicated new ones are expensive for the ET2/ET4.

You might get an extra 5 mph from a good flyscreen on a scooter that will do 75, but not on one that will do 45. Aerodynamic drag is an exponential factor, and far less important at lower speeds.

A flyscreen might be good for about 2-3 mph at the speeds we're talking about here, IMO.

Yes I see what you mean, I've just looked and they do look quite expensive. There are quite a few cheap second hand PX screens on eBay - anyone know whether they will fit with a bit of modification?

..I recently had my Piaggio Fly 50cc upgraded.I added the Mallosi 70cc kit & cam + rejet the carb and mine Flies along pretty good.Just the other day on the flats I had it up to 85 kph's and I think there was a bit more to go,maybe a few more kph's.I don't usually go fullout on it,don't want it to gernade on me...but I'm very pleased so far.I mostly needed it to perform better on hills and off the line...but the topend was way beter then I expected.I had it done profesionally and have had no probs since getting it done.I generally get 50 + kph uphills and I can get to 70 kph in only a few seconds off the line.It was a few bucks to do...but well worth it to me ($1100) as I plan to keep it awhile.

Exhaust now painted with PJ1- photo attached - My new carb has now landed - Dellorto 17.5 - just going to get it cleaned and then fit it hopefully this weekend/monday/tuesday - might need advice on this

[img]

I got my screen of ebay used for around £15. Its a bit scratched but hey its a fly screen for a fraction of the price.

It might also be worth looking at fly screens for the Piaggio Liberty (1st gen) as the liberty uses the same handlebars and headlamp. also i think a LX fly screen should fit with the only difference being the headlamp.[/img]

I wouldn't obsess over flyscreens, though - as Silver Streak pointed out, at the speeds we are discussing the speed improvement will be tiny.

My ET2 with a 70cc kit and Leo Vince exhaust, stock 12.5mm Weber with 85 MJ tops out at 51mph (by GPS), curious what yours will do with bigger carb.

Struggling with the new carb at the moment (Dellorto PHVA 17.5) - it doesnt have a vacuum pipe connection???? - I've had to drill out the brass blanking plate that was fitted (looks like a factory fitted one) and replace it with the vacuum connector off the Weber - fits pretty good - first attempt to start and it doesn't seem to be pulling fuel through - I guess i've got to prime the bowl with fuel to get it going first time??

Thats almost the same set up as mine before the new carb, 70cc with a Giannelli, stock weber 12 and 85 MJ, but mine only hits about 43mph tops, just wondering have you changed rollers or done any other mods?

What are your opinions on this....

A 1997 ET2 should have 16mm rollers (I think) - I've opened up the variator/clutch case cover and found two things......... firstly quite a bit of black powder lining the cover, but secondly the rollers in the variator are 19mm but they seem to fit the variator ok.

I've noticed on the internet that there are 2 drive belts for a ET2, a pre and a post 2000, the pre supposed to be used with a 16mm roller/variator and the post 19mm rollers, i'm guessing that my ET2 has a different variator to stock and is perhaps using the wrong belt maybe??

So 2 questions, 1st is this dangerous as i'm thinking that the black powder is from the belt maybe and should i replace the belt, 2nd is this having a negative effect on my top end speed perhaps because the drive belt/variator size combination isn't correct??

Any ideas greatly appreciated.....Thanks

OMG!!!!!!!

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!


I've got the 17.5 Dellorto fitted and working fairly well now - had to mod it slightly to accept a vacuum connector that was missing.

The scoot is like lightning now. I thought it was a lot more powerful when I'd just kitted and put the exhaust on but now its like a drag-racer (in my mind at least!!))

Still not much more improvement in top end speed - but the more I think about it I'm coming to the conclusion that its to do with the weird rollers/variator/belt set-up that looks stock but is definitely not what i expected to find.

I've taken out and weighed the stock rollers and they are 6.5g i reckon (not got a very accurate set of scales), but looking on the net it appears that stock rollers should be 8.5g for this engine. I'm thinking that if i get some 19x15.5 8.5 or 9g rollers then this will improve my top end maybe - anybody got any thoughts on this?? Also I'm thinking that the belt maybe the wrong size too on the logic that if the rollers are the wrong size then the variator is too and therefore so may be the belt, maybe the variator diameter is not correct at maximum speed or the belt is the wrong size or too worn possibly...... so help!!! your thoughts are greatly needed to get the top end higher.

With the new carb on the scoot still does the same top end on the flat, up a steepish hill its still like lightning to 42ish (wow!!) and i'm still not WOT at this point - the power from the engine is definately there...i think if i can just work out whats limiting the top end then it'll be fantastic.

I'll update my signature with the new costs and the top end but i'm sure there is much more mph to come.

6.6 g is correct, stock, for the post-98 19x15.5 variator you seem to be rocking. What's important is having the correct rollers for the variator you have, not the rollers which would have been on your scooter with a different (albeit original) variator In theory this will work - I suspect your power band has shifted to higher RPMs with your setup, though, which means if you add heavier weights you'll pin the scoot below the optimum power band EXCEPT for when WOT. This might have a pretty sad boggy effect on your around-town ride. Running stock rollers with my mild SP3 felt like crap until I got above 30mph or so. Adding lighter rollers fixed this and didn't affect my new top speed at the low speeds my scoot is capable of. Here's what I'm guessing: with heavier rollers you might add a couple mph top speed (eh), while lighter rollers might knock one or two mph off (eh), but of the two the lighter rollers will probably offer a more zippy all-around ride (yay).

There's no way to tell for sure without trying, though, because the increased across-the-board HP of your cylinder kit might compensate enough for the heavier rollers keeping you low with respect to power band that it will STILL be zippy around town. So if I were you I'd try some 5.7g (these are what I used with my SP3) and some 8g or so, and then we'll know for sure. It sounds like your rollers fit perfectly in your variator, which means you probably have a late-model ET variator. This is a perfectly fine variator and shouldn't be the problem. I would save your cash and keep the variator you have instead of looking for an old-model and just work with the appropriate weights for that variator (see above). I like your thinking that the belt might be wrong for the variator, though. Are there belt numbers you can check? How many miles are on the belt? Did you clean the black powder off of the belt contact at the variator and clutch so it doesn't slip?