Modern Vespa

Hi there, Im new to this forum, need some help though of possible.
I purchased a 2001 Vespa ET2 2 weeks ago and have yet to take it out! The guy that I bought it from said that it hadnt been used for weeks and that he suggested I start it up everyday or so to prevent the battery from going flat. Anyway..my insurance and tax came today so today was the 1st day of my scootering life! Guess what..it wouldnt start, I have been able to start it everyday mainy through kickstart. I have purchased a battery charger and the brake lights, fuel guage etc works, just no start-up!
im gutted...any ideas on what needs to be done and a brief (idiots guide) tutorial on how to do it....

many thanks

Marysparx

hi

can you describe what happens when you try to start it?

Fabio

Hi there,
Yes on electric start, sounds like it wants to work but doesnt "kick in" so I then try it on kick start and nothing. Its funny because it started every other day fine in the garden until I had all the documentation to get it on the road and now its just sitting there. Im really annoyed!

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I've been creating a website with 50cc 2-stroke info on, here's some of the content that might help you out....




Here's some useful tips if you experience problems starting and/or getting your 2 Stroke scooter to run properly.

Three is the Magic Number...3 Things you must have.
To turn a scooter engine over and to get it to start, the engine needs three things....
- Fuel (The ratio of petrol/air must be correct)
- A spark (Sparking at the right time in the engine's cycle)
- Cylinder compression (Must be up to a sufficiently high level of compression)

If your scooter won't start its very likely to be due to one of the above. Before you start troubleshooting, make sure there is fuel in the tank by actually looking into it. Don't just trust the fuel gauge.

Electric Start
Most scooters have four things that need to be done before they can be started with the electric starter:
- The ignition has to be turned on
- The kill switch has to be in the "on" position (usually near the right handgrip. This usually only applies to most non-UK bikes that are fitted with a 'kill switch')
- One of the brake levers has to be pulled (usually doesn't matter which one)
- The starter button must be pressed.

If the scooter doesn't turn over when you've done all the required operations, there's perhaps an electrical problem with the battery. Make sure the battery is charged. If it is, make sure the fuse hasn't blown. If it hasn't, check to see if you are getting a voltage at the starter motor terminals. If you are, the starter motor is likely defective. You can check the voltage that the battery is giving out and if defective you should consider replacing the battery.

Give it a Kick!
Many scooters have a kick start. If the battery is OK and the starter motor doesn't work, try kickstarting it. It's usually not too hard and your scooter should start ideally on the 1st kick, but 2nd or 3rd kick is OK too.

Engine does turn over but won't start
If the scooter does turn over but still doesn't start you should check for a spark and make sure fuel is getting to the engine. To check for a spark, remove the spark plug from the cylinder and re-attach the spark plug cap/lead back onto the spark plug. Hold the tip of the plug against the cylinder head and crank the engine.

You should see a blue spark across the gap, the spark should be strong! If you don't, there's possibly a problem with the ignition. This could mean that you have a faulty coil, CDI unit or electronic ignition module which will have to be replaced, or it could just be a loose wire. If the spark plug is fouled up/oily/overly blackened then it is very likely that it is the cause of your problems and you should consider replacing it as statistically, the second most likely fault with starting a scooter is a faulty/fouled up spark plug.

It sparks! It sparks!.......but where's the Fuel??
If you do have a strong spark, you next need to check that fuel is being delivered to the carburetor. Make sure there is fuel in the tank first and if so you can move on to checking the fuel valve. Most scooters use either a gravity fuel feed by locating the fuel tank higher than the carburetor, or some use a vacuum-fed petcock (on/off tap) controlled by the vacuum created at the carburetor. The carburetor has two fuel-related pipes connected to it. One is from the fuel tank and is for the fuel supply, the other provides a vacuum to suck the fuel from the fuel valve. If you disconnect the fuel supply pipe from the carburetor, fuel should flow out when you crank the engine (be careful to catch the fuel if you do this and don't do it with a hot engine), if fuel doesn't flow out then the fuel valve may be faulty. You can try applying a vacuum to see if fuel flows by sucking on the vacuum pipe(but make sure it's the vacuum line, not the fuel line if you try this!). Another Tip: If there is a spark but you are unsure about fuel supply... squirt a little bit of fuel (a spoonful) into the spark plug hole and then replace the spark plug and try to start the engine.....if it starts and runs for 5 seconds and then dies then you can check for fuel flow to the carb, or blocked jets.

You must be Choking!!
If you are getting a strong spark, fuel supply to the carburetor is good and the engine is turning over on the starter, it's possible that the electrically operated automatic choke has failed. It's supposed to operate when the engine is cold, but if it's stuck or burned out, the mixture will be weak and the scooter probably won't start. The automatic choke is usually a black cylindrical object attached to the carburetor with a couple of wires coming out from it. It's the only electrical powered component attached to the carburetor, so it's usually not too hard to spot. If you have a meter you can measure the resistance across the leads of the choke, you should see around 10 ohms or less. If it's an open circuit its likely to be burned out and will need to be replaced. If it seems to be OK it may simply be stuck, or the wiring to it may have a problem/loose connection. You can also check to see that it's getting voltage across its terminals. A final check...remove the choke from the carb and plug the wires into a 12V source for about 5-10 minutes. The choke body should get warm and the protruding mechanism should extend slightly. Measure the length of the protruding choke mechanism - it should have increased in length by around 5mm more than when it was cold.

All gummed up
It's also possible that there is a problem with the cleanliness of the carburetor and if so you may need to remove it and clean it out. If the scooter has been sitting for a few months with fuel in the carburetor, the fuel may have evaporated and left behind a sticky "gum" that will prevent the carburetor from working properly and which must be removed. Statistically, the biggest problem for a scooter not starting is a gummed up carburetor/ blocked carb jets.


Blocked Jets
A very common problem is blocked jets in the carburetor. The jets have tiny holes in them that the fuel passes through to supply the carb and these become gummed up with fuel residue. You will find three jets in the carb (Main jet-used for Wide Open Throttle, Idle Jet-feeds the carb at idle/low revs, Choke/Power Jet-gives extra-rich fuel supply when starting from cold) and its easy to remove the jets and clean them out with a spot of Carb Cleaning Fluid and/or with compressed air. A tip is to blow through the jets with your mouth and then hold them up to the light to see if you can see clear daylight through the jet's bore. Whatever you do don't be tempted to prod the hole in the jet with a bit of wire or a needle as this will enlarge the jet's bore and be the cause of tuning problems at a later stage.


Setting the idle mixture screw
You could also be experiencing too rich or too lean fuel/air mixture to your carb. To set this you should screw the idle mixture screw fully in.... (Before you screw it in...look at where the screwdriver slot is at... then count how many turns it takes to go all the way in gently... 1 and 1/2 turns for example, and remember the number of turns for later)..... then unscrew it out by the number of turns that it states in your handbook - for my scooter it was 1 and 1/2 turns out.

Check that Compression
If the automatic choke is problem free, the starter cranks the engine sufficiently, there's fuel at the carb and there's a strong spark then there may be an engine problem and you need to check the cylinder compression. To do this accurately you will need a compression tester. It screws in instead of the spark plug and measures cylinder pressure. When you crank the engine you should see a reading of approaching 125-150 psi. If it's 100 psi or less then its likely that you have an engine problem (probably failed piston rings) and you will need to remove the cylinder head to gain access to the piston rings. A trick to try if you haven't got a Compression Tester is to hold your finger tightly over the spark plug hole with the spark plug removed to see if your finger is forced away strongly when you try to turn the engine over - it may just indicate that there is very little compression if the force is very minor. Another tip is to add a teaspoon of engine oil through the spark plug hole and try to crank the engine again. If you then get a better compression its likely that the piston rings are shot, as the oil you added sealed the rings for a short period of time and hence temporarily gave you better compression.

In Summary
Probably the most common problems to starting a scooters' engine are a dead battery or carburetor problems due to bad adjustment or build up of gummy deposits, carburetor problems usually come on slowly though. If a scooter is OK one day and refuses to start the next day, I'd first suspect an electrical problem and look to check/replace the battery.



Hope this is of use to you...

Fabio

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(Sigh) It sounds just like my ET2, which often gets to just sit since I don't have time to keep nudging it back to life.... I should mention that there have been reports of cracking the transmission (?) case when the kick starter is used. Apparently in our ET's the kick starter was a really poor design; and I was told to try never to use it.

Other than that, Fabio has you well covered, above. And, this post is noted in personal notes for the next time I try to start her...... Good Luck and I hope she's up and running soon!

Cheers for that Fabio....I'll give it a go in a bit, will keep you posted, thank you so much for such a great response!

Markysparx

Woke up this morning, changed the spark plug, hey presto, started first time. The local motorcycle shop only the standard copper plug's in stock and were £3.50 he said this would be suitable so I got one of these. He said he is having some new racing plugs in by the start of the week mainly used for RS125 at £6.50 each. I have also been told that the best ones to get are NGK Iridium 1X.

What are your current thoughts on Spark plugs...which are the best ones to get?

Many thanks again for the support it getting the girl on the road.
My first scootering experience this morning was superb!!!

Markysparx

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I've used normal plugs and Iridium ones - currently got an Iridium in at the moment.

I like the Iridium - seems to run well - but if the normal one you have is ok then I wouldn't change it - just keep an eye on its colour, its a good indication of how your scoot is running and may help you to avoid potential problems

Fabio

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aaaaaahhhh, drove to work no probs today. 2 miles max at 6am, took me about 15-20 mins, got 45 down the hill...but it is steep!
On the way, just as I was approaching work, a couple of speed bumps and my oil light came on and off, this did it about 5 times.
On way home...idea was stop and get some 2 stroke but looking in the oil compartment seemed to be enough.
Got about 1 mile to get soem oil anyhow (back-up) and stop. Bike packed up, could not get it to start. Would start again elctric or kick. Electric again sounded like it wanted to kick in. Could it really be the spark-plug again?
Anyway just got in from a 1.5 mile up and down hill walk home chugging my Vespa.
Again, not happy with my scootering life so far....and its only a few days old
Any ideas what could be wrong???
please help me, i really want to enjoy scootering!

markysparx

Ok, First things first. If you can help it, never let the oil light come on, ever. The ET2 has a huge oil tank and its not AS big a deal as it is in most other two strokes, but its generally bad practice.

Can you take out the plug an take a picture of the end, or describe what it looks like? What color is it?

What two stroke did you put into it?

Is it turning over on the kickstarter ok? If its turning over ok, then its hopefully just a spark or fuel supply problem, which are generally easy fixes.

Ok, Ill bear that in mind, so general rule, when the oil light comes on...stop and fill up. Never run the bike with the oil light on.
Im not 100% sure what 2-stroke I used, but can let you know tomorrow...is there a good sort to use? The spark-plug on Sunday was black kind of oily, didnt spend too much time looking at it, just put the new one in and then was so excited it started, that I didnt bother!

When I say stop and fill up....i dont mean when the engines hot!

NB: Fabio Dougie's great instructions have now been immortalized as an article in the MV Wiki.

Great job, FD! 8)

~Deborah

And so they should...great work and great help!

markysparx

Fabio is the man when it comes to ET2s alright.

Marky, The kind of two stroke used is very important. Its highly recommended that you only use fully synthetic oil. You can get Castrol Power 1 TTS from Halfords and i would recommend that, its easily got and very high quality. However any Fully Synthetic oil will do. you can put this in the tank the same as petrol, no need to let the bike cool down. Also it doesn't hurt to stick to one oil and only use that, but its not necessary.

It sounds like your bike is too rich and the plugs fouling. If this is the case, then thats good, as its an easy fix and doesn't damage the engine, unlike when the bike runs lean.

Have a look at the plug as tell us what the story is. A picture would be the best.

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You can tell quite a lot about how your scoot is running by examining the spark plug and looking at its condition, especially the colour of the insulator....

Black/oily/smelling of fuel - is the usual indicator for it running too rich, (ie. too much petrol per volume of air),
White/very pale/smelling burnt - hints at being too lean (too little petrol per volume of air).
Creamy coffee colour - just right!


In your case it sounds as if the spark plug is fouling in some way.

Can you post some photos of the tip of the plug - also what is the type and ref on the plug eg NGK BR8ES etc.

Fabio.

Fabio...

Ill get some pictures on but looking at your picture, it was a fuel fouled one.
Keep you posted

Sparky

Hi Marky

My initial thoughts about possible faults include.... that the mixture is too rich, or the spark plug you're using is the incorrect one poss??

What I'd do is post some pics of the spark plug tip and list the ref numbers off the plug so I can see what plug it is you have fitted.

Then... to try to resolve the probs, I'd look at running the correct plug which for a ET2 is usually a BR9ES.

Then i'd plump for the Idle Mixture Setting - To set this you should screw the idle mixture screw fully in.... (Before you screw it in...look at where the screwdriver slot is at... then count how many turns it takes to go all the way in gently... 1 and 1/2 turns for example, and remember the number of turns for later)..... then unscrew it out by the number of turns that it states in your handbook - for my scooter it was 1 and 1/2 turns out.

Try this and let me know - we can then try the Main Jet to see if its the correct one.

All the best
Fabio

Dont get too nervous about that, you have about 200 miles of riding before the oiltank is empty! It uses very little oil. And hitting speedbumps will light the oil light since it will be sloshing around.

As i did say, it does have a huge oil tank and its not a big deal on the ET2. However, it is a big deal on some other two stroke scooters and motorbikes so its no harm to get into the habit of topping up the tank before the light comes on. The Honda X8R comes to mind, it has a small tank and the light only comes on when your nearly out.

Fabio, cheers for that I have definatly got a NGK BR9ES in there, taken it out and its black and smelly, havent managed to take a photo and post it as I am currently at work...
re; the idle mixture settings... unscrew it out by the number of turns that it states in your handbook ( I didnt get a handbook when I bought it) is there something online that I could find which has this in?

I think there may be some dead cells in my battery having a closer look, I'll get a new battery aswell...see if that helps.

Cheers Fabio...you really are a ledge when it comes to this ET2 business...think I might just bring it to Staffs ha ha

Hope all is well

Sparky

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Fully close it and then open it 1.5 turns and then try that - remember to count how many turns it takes to close it just in-case you want to reset to the original setting you already have.

Fabio

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right, keep you posted...do you know any "vespa fixers" in the west mids if I give up.....

Sparky

my daughter wiped her "hardly used" spark plug about 4 times before it cleaned, 2 strokes do get "coked up" a bit all that starting in the garden is exactly what she did until she got her cbt then it didn't run eg cut out at junctions and roundabouts, a few blasts on full throttle sorted it.

I am sure it is running rich still thought as she only gets about 60mpg.

Indeed - an 'Italian tune-up' might do it the world of good.

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I think that average fuel usage for a stock ET2 is only about 65mpg - so your daughter's ET2 sounds fairly much ok to me for a 1998 model.

My modified 70cc ET currently returns somewhere between 60-65mpg and I guess it depends on the sort of journeys she takes too.

Fabio.

I have had bad luck with the NGK BR9ES...too cool for Michigan....but great for warmer climates....BR8ES is the proper plug for a cooler area...
I am running iridium Autolite XS4063's that we get in the states..
Champion's are stock, but a lot of people had problems with them.....
Iridium's are great plugs but the tiny electrode's tend to wear fast....
For 3.5 pounds, I would go to your local discount auto parts place, and find them cheaper!

Still no luck Fabio,

I have the right Spark Plug..infact bought another one today the BR9ES just to make sure that it wasnt that, battery fully charged, idle setiings done on carb, still sounds like its gonna start and the nothing...why oh why...

So what needs doing with the main jet??

cheers in advance

Sparky

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So plug is new, idle mixture has been reset, battery is ok........ process of elimination, sounds like spark plug isnt consistently producing a spark, or the fuel isn't getting through to the carb.

First....have you checked that you are getting a spark? I'm wondering if the problem you are getting is intermittent and possible "not getting a spark" related.

If not, this is what I'd do to try and narrow the problem down.....

The next time the scooter won't start, unscrew the spark plug, re-attach the spark plug lead to the plug and hold the tip of the spark plug close to some metal on the engine, crank the engine over and see if you can see a strong blue spark jumping from the spark plug tip to the metal on the engine. (keep you fingers clear of the spark to avoid your body shorting the spark!!!!)

If you can see a strong spark then you know that this is ok and you can probably rule out that from the list of things it could be.

Hope this helps

Fabio

Ok Fabio, Will check spark later, just had a call back from the man I bought it from (he does paint jobs on cars/bikes) but his friend who works with him is also a scooter mechanic apparantly. He is going to come over tomorrow afternoon and take a look. He was horrified that I had only managed to get out on it once and that I still couldnt get her to start since breaking down...fingers crossed he is a genuine nice bloke and that his mechanic mate can diagnose the fault, Im getting fed up, specially as she is such a little beauty and I wanna go out on her, I cant even buy any mods, chrome,and tart her up etc until I know she's able to get on the road
Hope all is well in Staffs

Sparky

Surprise suprise, the man didnt turn up after promising 3pm, i called him at 4pm, he said definatly 5pm, its now 615pm....booohooo

Anyone know any decent Vespa mechanics in West Mids/Worcestershire?

Sparky

Reading this has made me wonder what my et2 will be look like when it's delivered on Monday

Just so theres only one current thread.....

If you say it started first time when you put the new plug in and then it went again, it sounds like a fuel supply problem.

You can clearly see the main and idle jets in the picture of the carburettor that Fabio posted up, i would recommend taking both those jets out and making sure they aren't blocked. First blow through them, and then i would take the finest bit of wire you can find and run it through them to check that they are clear. I use a single strand off a bicycle brake cable to do this job.

Don't be too down on the whole thing mate, at least when you do manage to fix it you will have alot more knowledge of how your scoot works, and you will be able to fix it again in a instant if it starts to happen again.

Very brave of you! Fuse wire is much softer than that steel, and can safely be used to unblock jets.

This is very good advice....

I normally use steel as i have a heap of spare jets, so it no biggie if i scratch the hell out of one, i just replace it. If its the only jet you have, its probably a good idea to be more careful...

Fabs....
right I have unscrewed the spark plug, and short of blowing my hand off, have a very nice strong blue spark. so this is ok.
I am going to order a new battery today and get the battery sorted, because something tells me, its probably the same one since 2003 and a bit err naff! Have posted a battery advice question on the forum for advice on which battery to get.

Thanks for your help so far matey, appreciated

Sparky

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Yes that's why I said........ (keep you fingers clear of the spark to avoid your body shorting the spark!!!!)

Ok - so you've got a strong spark - now you need to see if you've got a good fuel supply.... here's how to do it....


Make sure there is fuel in the tank first and if so you can move on to checking the fuel valve.

Most scooters use either a gravity fuel feed by locating the fuel tank higher than the carburetor, or some use a vacuum-fed petcock (on/off tap) controlled by the vacuum created at the carburetor. (Vacuum fed for the ET2)

The carburetor has two fuel-related pipes connected to it. One is from the fuel tank and is for the fuel supply, the other provides a vacuum to suck the fuel from the fuel valve.

If you disconnect the fuel supply pipe from the carburetor, fuel should flow out when you crank the engine (be careful to catch the fuel if you do this and don't do it with a hot engine), if fuel doesn't flow out then the fuel valve may be faulty.

You can try applying a vacuum to see if fuel flows by sucking on the vacuum pipe(but make sure it's the vacuum line, not the fuel line if you try this!).

Another Tip: If there is a spark but you are unsure about fuel supply... squirt a little bit of fuel (a spoonful) into the spark plug hole and then replace the spark plug and try to start the engine.....if it starts and runs for 5 seconds and then dies then you can check for fuel flow to the carb, or blocked jets.

Hope this helps

Fabio

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Spark by name and spark by nature,
right having a go tomorrow with the spoonful of fuel into the spark plug. so if it does work for 5 seconds Ill do the fuel flow, so the 2 pipes that are going into the carb. the black one is the vacuum? just so i dont suck on the wrong one!
lets see if the girl has a fuel flow problem!

Hope all is well in staffs, its bloomin freezin in Birmingham today!

Sparky

Alright Guys/Gals,

Its still freezing in Birmingham.
Right....I have a perfect strong blue spark coming out of my spark plug, I have a new clean fresh NGK BR9ES plug in there. I have poured some petrol into the spark plug hole and tried to start the girl up.Still nothing although she sounds like she wants to go.. My battery is brand new and fully charged. Its a Heavy Duty CT4L-BS. I have changed my idle settings to the advised relevant turns after believing that she was running too rich ( she has had a good ride out once only in the month that I have had her)...tilll she cut out...and died and has never come back to life. The ignition is turned on. The brake lever is pulled, the starter button pressed, then i have the chug chug...the kick start doesnt start it...just a chug chug...
......what is a man supposed to do with the girl.....

many thanks

WOW FD, what an AMAZING howto for ET2s!! Please let us know when this website of yours is up!

@ OP: as far as the oil light coming on (during a time I think you said your oil was mostly fully), this happened to me on my ET2 and ended up being a bad voltage regulator. Mechanics replaced it for about $60-80 all in (though I think I could have easily done this myself with right tools etc.).

Good luck getting your starting issues sorted!


Not to derail this post too much, but 2 quick ET2 questions:

1) is it perfectly normal for my scoot to barely start--and then not be able to GO FORWARD--for 10+ minutes during cold (below 25 degrees F) temperatures? The cold more than anything has seemed to lower my scoot's performance.

2) Should my totally stock (except maybe de-restricted) scoot only be getting 45-50ish MPG? Keep in mind I weigh about 250 so that could definitely factor in...

Sorry to insert these questions but I've never had someone I trusted who was knowledgable talk me through all my scooter questions/issues in person, so I'm sort of starved for answers...!

Thanks,


Michael