Modern Vespa

Flawed GTS muffler?
Prepping my rust free exterior GTS muffler for ceramic coating and found these holes. They are completely through the steel.

Spot weld to fix? Flaw in steel? Rusting from inside?

Thomas,

It appears there maybe emission warranty for your muffler issue. The bike would have to be brought to my dealership or any other dealer and inspected. If the holes were deemed a defect you would get full warranty. If they were caused by a outside source, you could be charged for the inspection. The bike must be inspected at the dealership with the muffler mounted. No parts can be shipped, to receive this warranty.

I have had many correspondence with Piaggio about your problem. They have authorized me to do the warranty under these conditions.

Depends on how badly the muffler is rusted on the inside. If it's really bad, spot welding the present holes will just cause new ones to pop out in other places.

Yikes! Too "hot" spot welds, looks like a mfg defect to me....not rusting.

Take it to a welder to be fixed. Explain the dilemma. If all he does is chase the thin spots around without being able to fix t, then you will know the overall condition of the muffler .

That's absolutely a manufacturing defect. Have it replaced under warranty.

emissions warranty is beyond the standard warranty. I believe its a required 5 year in the US. part of the emission system have it replaced for free of course.

I think this may be your best handle for a warranty replacement.

Yeah thats a warranty claim.. dont mess with it, just get it replaced.

If it's provably a manufacturing defect (and I can't see how there's any doubt in this case) then the 5 year (US) or 6 year (EU) warranty rules apply - don't let them fob you off with any other time or mileage expiry.

Thanks all!

This will be interesting.....to bad there's no VSO East.....

I agree with the idea of a manufacturing defect. My muffler is rusted and corroded from several winters of salt but still intact and no holes.

call them maybe they will send you a replacement and you send them the old one back for the warranty.

Cut and paste from email answer by dealer.

"We will not need the old manifold, you can have it. Looking at your picture of holes in the muffler I do not understand why you think that it is a defect. I will not send it in for warranty."

In response to,

"I wrote last week indicating I had finally felt good enough to ride and get my exhaust manifold replaced. Much to my surprise there is a manufacturing flaw in the muffler. Can I ship this to you for a warranty exchange? Do you also want the manifold and clamp recalled sent back?

I'd appreciate a response, perhaps my last email got trapped by your spam bot."


Bold text is my edit.

What next? Advise needed!!!

most dealers do not send in warranty parts unless specifically asked to do so by manufacture. They just fill out forms and maybe send pics.

Suggest you try calling VSO. At least you will get a good straight answer.

WTF??? "I do not understand why you think that is a defect"??? Really? What a dipshit.

It looks pretty faulty to me and not damaged from below.

Keep us all posted won't you.

Bill X

Why don't you contact VSO and see if they can handle it for you?

Interesting... the exhaust on my 2007 GTS 250 developed similar holes all along both sides of the seam at the rear of the pipe. I figured since the bike was out of warranty that I was SOL & I'd need to just get a new pipe, but if there is a 5-year warranty on the exhaust, that's music to my ears! Can anyone provide some reference material that could be taken to a dealer to show them?

Wouldn't the cost of shipping (2 ways) make it more practical to have a(nother) local dealer warranty it?

His nearest dealer is over 75 miles away and they're the dealer who refused to consider putting it under warranty.
Let me see if I can say it better:
I think that he should contact VSO via phone and send them several digital pictures of the muffler and see if there is anything they can do. Since the OP has no other dealers nearby, he's going to have to either transport his scooter to a dealer who is quite a distance away or pay postage to get a replacement muffler shipped to him/install it himself if another dealer thinks that it's covered by the emissions warranty.

At least here in Southern Calif we have the benefit of more than one dealer within a reasonable distance....75 or 100 miles out.

(That picture really highlights how thin the shell really is on the factory cans. The stamping of the boilerplate legals look like they contributed to the flaw along with the spot-welds)

140 miles!


I sent a PM to David, I asked for advise, and I'm patiently awaiting a response.

Whoa!!! Worse than I thought. If anyone will give you the straight scoop, it will be VSO. Good luck!

Well, I did a little digging and it looks like there is actually a federally mandated *8* year warranty in the US:

http://www.epa.gov/oms/consumer/warr95fs.txt

Specifically, from the official document: Since the catalytic converter is an integral part of the muffler that cannot be replaced separately, the entire unit should be covered. In fact, just as with my muffler, it looks like those holes appeared at the rear, which is before the cat in the path the exhaust follows, so this defect would indeed affect the emissions control system and should be covered under the recall.

Louisq, perhaps you ought to email that link to your friendly dealer?

Design and Defect Warranty coverage may vary depending on the
type of vehicle you have (e.g., heavy-duty trucks, motorcycles or
recreational vehicles have different time and mileage requirements).
To determine the length of warranty coverage that applies to your
vehicle, look for the emissions warranty information in your owner's
manual or warranty booklet. If you own a California vehicle, you may
be entitled to additional warranty coverage.

The owner's manual or warranty booklet will also provide you with
guidance on the procedures for obtaining warranty coverage. If you
have questions about the emissions warranties on your vehicle or need
help in filing a warranty claim, contact your local car dealer or the
manufacturer's zone or regional representative listed in your owner's
manual or warranty booklet.

What Emission Control and Emission Related Parts Are Covered by The
Design and Defect Warranty?

An emission control part is any part installed with the primary
purpose of controlling emissions. An emission related part is any
part that has an effect on emissions. Listed below are some examples
of parts or systems which fall under these definitions. A more
complete list can be found in your owner's manual/warranty booklet.
If any of the parts listed below fail to function or function
improperly because of a defect in materials or workmanship, causing
your vehicle to exceed federal emission standards, they should be
repaired or replaced under the emissions warranty if your vehicle is
less than 2 years old and has been driven less than 24,000 miles. One
manufacturer may use more parts than another, so the following list is
not complete for all vehicles.


EMISSION CONTROL PARTS

Exhaust Gas Conversion Systems

oxygen sensor thermal reactor
catalytic converter dual-walled exhaust pipe

Exhaust Gas Recirculation System

EGR valve thermal vacuum switch
EGR solenoid EGR spacer plate
EGR backpressure transducer Sensor and switches use to
control EGR flow

Evaporative Emission Control System

purge valve fuel filler cap
purge solenoid vapor storage canister and filter

Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) System

PCV valve PCV solenoid

Air Injection System

Air pump diverter, bypass, or gulp valve
reed valve anti-backfire or deceleration valve

Early Fuel Evaporative (EFE) System

EFE valve thermal vacuum switch
heat riser valve

Fuel Metering System

electronic control module (unit) or EFI air flow meter, computer
command module or mixture control unit, deceleration controls,
electronic choke, fuel injectors, fuel injection units and fuel
altitude compensator sensor, bars or rails for EFI or TBI systems,
mixture settings on sealed fuel mixture control solenoid, diaphragm
or other systems, fuel metering components that achieve closed/other
feedback control sensors/loop operation switches and valves

Air Induction System

thermostatically controlled air cleaner, air box

Ignition Systems

electronic spark advance timing advance/retard systems,
high energy electronic ignition

Miscellaneous Parts

hoses, gaskets, brackets, clamps and other accessories used in the
above systems

Ah... I must have overlooked the part about motorcycles. I searched through the user manual online, but it doesn't say anything about the warranty of the exhaust, however it does refer to a separate "warranty booklet"... does anyone happen to have one of those handy for the GTS 250 that they could take a look at, to see what it says specifically about the exhaust?

here is some good reading for ya.

http://www.epa.gov/oms/standards/light-duty/motorcycles.htm

and


http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=37f1c488a99cdfbb99e94b80ecce003d&rgn=div6&view=text&node=40:18.0.1.1.2.5&idno=40

Quick call them, before they go out of business!

Thanks for digging that up, Old As Dirt... very interesting indeed. On a side note, I wonder if that's the reason why the engine displacement of the GTS 300 is only 278cc, so that it would still fall within the class II category, in order to avoid meeting stricter regulations if it were to fall into category III? I'll admit that could be a bit of a stretch of logic, to make such a move just to accommodate the US regulations, but if similar categories are in use in many places around the world, that could be a very plausible explanation.

Anyway, my bike falls WAY outside the mileage limit (30,000 km = ~18,750 miles), so it looks like I'm SOL for a warranty replacement. I'm beginning to detect the distinct smell of planned obsolescence here...

How many miles are on your bike, Louisq?

Well Tom I did receive your PM and email, I was out today golfing with corporate however will forward the pictures tomorrow and get you handled.

Best,
SDG

Well, if you look at the photos, the area around the holes seems to be bent inward. Also, the holes themselves have what looks to be sharp edges.

If someone sent me those photos and asked me what happened, I'd say it looks like a blow from the outside - maybe something like a screwdriver - caused the hole. It doesn't look like something that rusted from the inside out.

Just my .02

I don't have a 3D monitor but it appears that material is missing (causing the wholes) vs bent in. The OP would have to verify that live. Missing material would indicate rusting or melting. Since it shouldn't be hot enough to melt (unless the material was miserably thin) and I don't see much rust on the outside I think it's at least a fair guess that it's rusting from the inside. I agree, though, that the shape is suspiciously like a puncture with something like a screwdriver.

JerseyBiker, I can assure you they were not caused by a strike of any kind. These holes were eaten away from the inside and the surface around them is perfectly flat, resulting in the sharp edges around them. There is some discoloration around them due to exhaust leakage, but it's definitely corrosion. The exact same thing happened to my exhaust along the seam toward the rear. I don't think it's common rust, there certainly wasn't any visible rust on the outside of mine; and if it rusted due to water, that would have occurred where water would have pooled at the bottom of the muffler, not the top. I suspect that it's more likely due to oxidation on the inside that was accelerated by years of hot exhaust blowing against that one spot, where the metal was stretched thin by the stamping process.

I could MAYBE make holes with a maul and chisel with one blow, but not replicate the shape. There is no inward edge nor is there any dent. If I can figure out where it is I'll take a pic with my digital microscope.
These mufflers are stouter than many realize. They're quite heavy. don't have a micrometer to measure, but Bagel has the right picture.

punch a hole with a screwdriver in metal yourself and see what the results are. You will have metal deflecting inward. in the op photos you have none of that.

Just to be clear - I'm not suggesting the OP is wrong.

All I am saying is that it is possible THE DEALER saw what I suggested and that's why he wrote that email asking why the OP thought it was a warranty issue. To me the photos look like a strike from the outside - others see rust holes.

I'd say a dealer or company rep. needs to see the actual item to determine if it is a warranty issue. Photos can be deceiving.

Sorry if that wasn't clear - didn't mean to imply anything. I hope the OP gets a replacement under warranty.

your post was after he got a email back from his closeest dealer. I pointed out to you that its not possible to get that clean of a hole punch with out deforming the metal , even if you had a block of wood under it to support it the metal would still deflect inward where the object makes the impact.

Who was the dealer?

Przybylski's Jawa, in Pulaski WI

Actually after comparing the pictures to my own muffler, it looks like the holes on louisq's are on the underside, not on the top as I had thought - is that correct? If so, I suppose it's possible that some moisture could have condensed and collected inside the muffler, which corroded the metal over time. Also, if the metal corroded from the inside to a point where it got so thin that the exhaust pressure alone caused the hole to "blow out", there may not be any visible rust marks on the outside; once the hole is opened up, any condensed moisture may have escaped through those holes, rather than sitting there and leaving any visible rust marks on the outside. Just thinking and theorizing out loud here.

For reference, here's the recent thread where someone had dissected one of these beasts, in case anyone is curious to know what they look like on the inside:

What's inside the stock muffler

And JerseyBiker, I get your point, after all anybody can read just about anything they want into a picture, but as old as dirt pointed out, the metal around the holes would have been deformed if these were formed due to a puncture. If the dealer wants to be so closed-minded as to not even consider the possibility of a legitimate warranty issue, well that's just a terrible way to treat a customer.