Modern Vespa

I first started getting the notch symptoms at 9,000 miles and had my steering bearings replaced at 12,000 miles. Now I'm at 22,000 miles and the notch is back. I actually go through rear tires at the same rate as steering bearings on the MP3 500, but unlike many other bikes its not a simple repair. I've enjoyed my scooter, but I'll never buy another MP3.

they didn't properly torque them when they changed the bearing AND races out.

The Vespa shop torqued the bearings as per Piaggio pecifications, and then readjusted the torque after 600 miles as specified by Piaggio as well. I've read about other people having this issue at the same kinds of miles I'm seeing, so I don't think you can blame this on the torque. If anything you can blame it on the horrible condition of the roads in Seattle. I'm in Phoenix now and I've never seen roads as smooth as they are here. I'd expect to get 50,000 miles out of my bearings here if they weren't already notched.

Same goes for me, nice idea, really bad execution of the product.

I'm leaning toward a Goldwing for the next bike. I'd also consider a BMW LT, but the Honda is more reliable, cheaper to fix, and more comfy to the passenger (my wife).

I am a VISUAL person, so has someone made an instructional video of the GONZO TWEAK yet

I did a Wiki article:

MP3 - Short-term fix for "the notch"

No video though.

Gonzo.

OK I know this is an MP3 topic, but can the Gonzo tweak be applied to all scoots, specifically a BV250? Has anyone tried it? Are there any threads pertaining to two wheeled scoots? I could not pull up anything with a quick search.

Yes, you can do it to any scoot - just be aware in your own mind it's only a temporary fix.

Thanks Jim

My scoot doesn't have the notch yet, but it is of an age and mileage (13000km) that I need to be aware of it, in case it arises. I probably won't do the work myself, but fortunately there is a wonderful motorbike mechanic who lives around the corner from me and I have used him for years.

In my 40 years of riding on a few different sorts of bikes I have only encountered this particular problem on the MP3s. I've had loose steering head bearings and tight ones too, but I've never worn one out or damaged one before - even after having bent the odd fork or two. One might think that having TWO steering heads might make the system stronger than a 2-wheeler's , but no.

I think the resident curmudgeon has the answer - the Italians were having a long lunch one day and decided to make the races out of a parmesan-like material, and then cut back on the bolognese sauce when assembling.

Gonzo

I bought a second hand Fuoco with full service history to give, I thought, more stability than my motorcycles at low speed. It turned out that it was much worse than on two wheels but there you go. I was then told at my local service dealers that I had notchy steering and that it would fail the next MOT. Following a bout of doom and despondency, due to the high cost of such a job, I was told about the GonzoB fix. I joined the forum, read the thread, did the job and tested the scooter, FANTASTIC ! thanks GonzoB. I did not disconnect the hydraulic pipes although in hindsight it would make the job easier and setting the torque values more accurate but it was still a very quick and simple job and it works. I can now go down to very low speeds and manouver without feeling anxious and putting my feet down. Thanks again.

Be sure to do the grease fix. It should smooth it out some more. When I first started getting the notch, I filled the tubes with grease, and have not yet had to the the Gonzofix. That was 9,000 miles ago.

+1. A critical part of caring for the steering bearings on the MP3.

Having recently carried out the Gonzo fix for the notch on my Fuoco steering I felt that the cause of this phenomenon needed further investigation. The following is my view on the likely cause and I would very interested to hear comments from the vastly more experienced MP3ers out there.

The 'notch. is apparently in the thrust bearings in the bottom of the twin steering headstocks. This is a normal arrangement on motorcycles and scooters albeit with only a single headstock. The MP3 machines being unique in having two front wheels that turn and tilt and that can also be locked. This arrangement is quite complex in that not only does the pivot frame have to be locked to prevent tipping when stationary but the two suspension legs also have to be prevented from compressing. This is achieved by means of two hydraulic locks on rods attached to the front suspension. When the scooter is stopped, especially with the front brake, the suspension dips and compresses the front springs. If the machine is being parked this is the point at which the tilt lock is applied and the springs stay compressed. If the machine is placed on the centre stand still locked, which seems to be quite normal, the suspension is still under compression. This can be proved by releasing the lock and seeing how much the front end lifts and it can be quite a considerable amount. This means that if the tilt lock is left on, the thrust bearings are subject to a load that would not apply to a normal two wheeler. It is not normal for thrust bearings to be subject to this sort of static load as they are, as the name implies, there to take thrust in a moving scenario even though in the steering head it is not fully rotational. I believe that the 'notch' is caused by this static pressure which can be applied for weeks on a machine not taken out regularly and while lack of grease and over tight lock rings may contribute they are not the main cause. I have repaired and re-built motorcycles over many years and even with 'bikes that have not turned a wheel for years I have never found one with a 'notched' thrust bearing. I know that quite large loads are applied to the thrust bearings in use on the road, when hitting a pothole for instance, but the bearing is still rotating however small that rotation maybe.

believe and analyze what you will. the bottom line is the correct torque value. Too much and your pressing the bearings too hard into the race thus causing an indentation which we refer to as the notch. One must also grease said bearings Piaggio finally provided a tool for that after it was developed by a member on this forum and been in use for almost 2 years.

Thanks for the reply and I do not disagree that the correct torque and regular greasing are important but I don't think they are the only factor. The recommended torque setting is only around 10ft/lbs which is merely hand tight and is to take up any free play in the headstock. If severely over tightened then damage would be caused but at that level it would be felt as stiff steering. On motorcycles or even pedal cycles the locking ring is tightened until there is no free play but the bars turn freely and while it is harder to determine on the MP3 the principle is still the same. The load applied to the bearings in normal road use is far in excess of the torque used to take out the free play and is, when the steering lock is operated, maintained for far longer. Even if you don't accept my theory surely unlocking the tilt when parking for any length of time must take pressure off the bearings, springs and hydraulics and must therefore be beneficial. The only problem I can see is if you forget that the tilt lock is off when dropping the scooter off the stand. Being of a certain age I tie a label on to the frame to remind me.

if what you say is true then time is against the bearings in your example no matter what mileage is done.

So after owning mine since new in spring of 08 I should have the notch then.
I don't, never have.
mine has regularly sat for winter time just with the tilt lock also it during the summer riding season it also sits just with the tilt lock.

Then there was UFO who replaced his bearing twice if I remember correctly in less than 2 years and with over 70,000 miles total during that time.

Also a little research will show you folks have had the notch show up under 10,000 miles and some have seen in 40,000 miles while some like myself have yet to see it. So clearly mileage is not an issue

Same goes with time , Some have seen it show up less than a year after purchasing to nothing after 6 years of ownership.

What we do know is folks who have greased the bearings are less likely to see it, also piaggio came up with a procedure to properly set the torque and has issued a service bulletin addressing this. Also instructing dealers to check the torque as part of the PDI. Kinda makes you go hmmm. wonder what happened early on during model production in the early years. Haven't heard of any new models 2012 and newer owner having any issues over in EU. Again Hmmmm.

The bearings on the MP3 models are completely *above* the suspension. Locking the suspension has zero effect on any axial stress on the bearings.

All the heavier Piaggio bikes have suffered with steering bearing problems. e.g. the X9's were notorious for gaining a notch at ~18,000 miles. Solved by prodigious greasing and ensuring no pre-load after the locking ring was tightened down. The MP3's are even heavier at the front, which seems to account for the earlier failures, some as early as 6,000 miles. Again, greasing and ensuring no pre-load cures the problem.

Hello moderator,
You are of course absolutely right and I am wrong regarding the locking arrangement for the suspension. My philosophy has always been " better to theorise and fail than never to theorise at all"

I do have a final comment regarding this issue and your answer.

When designing a machine the engineering tales into account the weight as well as other factors when determining what bearings are required, so the fact that the MP3 is heavy is irrelevant. If the design of the bearing is correct but a cheap product is fitted to save cost it is still a fault. A tank is heavy but the bearings should not fail in such a short time. If the steering or suspension had failed on my car because the diesel engine is heavy I would expect that there would be a safety re-call and the problem put right under warranty. I am new to this scooter world but at £7500.00 I think purchasers deserve better.

Assembly has to be done correctly, too.

In the case of the MP3, it seems to me as much a problem of execution as design.

I now have 2 MP3s one mine the other my wife's, and neither has the notch so far. Mine I bought new and the bearings were loose when I got it (lock rings moved by hand). My wife's has ~21,000 miles and no notch. Both got the grease treatment and adjustment done per MV wisdom, and here's to hoping I'm in the clear for a looongg time.

I just got the grease bolt and was thinking about trying to have a go at greasing the bearings this weekend.
The problem is I'm not sure what kind of grease I should use.
I can't seem to get a hold of the AGIP PV 2 so I've been searching for an equivalent.
From what I understand it's not good or potentially not good to mix the old and the new grease if they use different additives (thickeners). I've seen that some are Calcium based and some not.
Also when I look at the edge of the bearings on my MP3 I think I can see that the current grease has leaked out and that it has a whiteish color.
I believe this is from a zink additive.
I've also read that you shouldn't use a high impact grease (EP) on the steering bearings since this could increase the wear of the bearings...

I'm at aloss and would appreciate if someone could help me out and just give me a couple of examples from brand names that I could focus my search on, i.e. Castrol, CRC etc.
I've actually found one that I hope might work "Castrol LM Multipurpose"
What do you think of that one?

/Ender

I think the consensus was marine bearing grease.

+1 to the marine bearing grease. If it's good for boat trailer bearings. I should work just fine.

I greased my bearings either last summer, or the summer before. I will re-shoot the grease on them tomorrow. I just wish I can find that video again where someone put their wheel up on a tire ramp and worked on it that way.

I totally agree, I started to get the notch and applied the grease fix. I haven't had an issue since and keep applying the grease fix (because its so easy to do) every 6 months.

I finally got around to grease the bearings with the aid of the Piaggio grease bolt.
I opted for the lazy man solution and just drove the MP3 up a selfmade woden ramp with one wheel at a time, and had no problem whatsoever accessing all four bolts without removing any plastics. :p

I had a really tough time finding the right grease here in Sweden but
the one I finally chose was the Agrol Super EP2 available from (Granngården) which according to the contents and specifications is alot like the original Agip grease provided by Piaggio i.e. Calcium based with similar viscosity etc.

Read somewhere that you're not supposed to mix different types of grease that is grease that have different types of additives/thickeners since they supposedly can have dissolving effect on eachother.

Used a little more than one full cartridge so I guess there wasn't much grease in here to begin with.

My MP3 500 is a -12 (8600 Km so far) and I guess this goes under the label preventive maintenace since I haven't yet (knock-on-wood) felt "the notch".
Hopefully I never will (or at least not for a long time anyway
)

/Ender

So basically, where you are putting the white line is a position where there is not a bearing ball sticking out? And 15 degrees is about two bearing off the original mark? and it is either left or right of the original position?

I put GP w/lithium grease on both my 250 & 400 steering bearings a few years ago and have no regrets.

The procedure it to move a ball to the centre of the next gap. You can mark either the ball or the gap. It doesn't matter if you go left or right. The important thing is not to turn the steering while you're doing the adjustment. It works out to 15 degrees because of the number of balls in the bearing.

So if it looked like this to start with:
0-0-0
then you want it to look like:
-0-0-

Gonzo.

Exactly my experience. I've lived with the notch for a few months now and decided what the hell - try redoing the grease first. Gave it about 8 pumps for each fitting and e' voila! No more notch.

I've made this topic a 'sticky', as every MP3 owner will want to read it at least once.

Great idea Jim,

Here is a link to one of the more recent "notch" topics with some more usable info:

http://modernvespa.com/forum/post2150276#2150276

I got a mp3 500 with 30000 miles on it and a huge notch bearings issue.
I tried to grease to left and right bearings, it alleviated the problem but is still quite bad. I wanted to try the gonzo fix before waste a day on replacing the bearings.

Do you guys have a picture of the steering head nuts to loosen? are the 4 nuts that are visible in the picture attached?
thanks for the help!

you will need this also
http://www.wotmeworry.org.uk/manuals/useful%20info/Steering%20Bearing%20Adjustment%202010.pdf

I was going to follow these specific instructions

MP3 - Short-term fix for "the notch"

that allows to do that without the tool which looks quite expensive and tough to find online

but thanks to your link now I know which are the bolts to loosen!

the tools are easy to find. look at AF1racing.com they have them instock.

And that procedure came out after the gonzo tweek so prior to the tweek it was a guess as to what to set the nuts for torque value.

I saw them but 140$ is a bit too much right?

any cheap option like a wrench lock nut?

no they are a special factory tool from piaggio same as the dealers use.

so how did you guys do the gonzo fix before the tool was available?
do you think that this would do the job?: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002LCVZBS/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A2ZBOUDBUCRCF4