Modern Vespa

I have tools like that, but I'm pretty sure they won't do it. There are clearance issues. For 'close enough for government work' a drift punch and hammer could well do fine.

I bought the Piaggio tools. No notch, 34,000 miles later. Got the grease bolt too. Not sure which did the trick, but the trick was done.

yeah a tool like that but it needs to be thinner. Some folks used a punch and a hammer. I made a tool. but now have the proper factory tool and it makes it so much nicer and you won't damage the notches.

Using the factory tool means doing the bearings the workshop manual way - even a good shop will take over three hours to do that...

To do the Gonzo tweak you just use a drift to loosen the ring-nuts on top of the steering tubes. Loosen both as much as you can - a 1/4" or so.

Then move the roller cage (which you can now just see) half the distance that's between any two adjacent rollers.

Snug up the lower ring-nut, allow the weight of the bike to rest fully on the bearing again, re-check the lower ring nut is snugged-up (not too tight) then lock it in place with the upper ring-nut.

Takes about five minutes per side.

i did buy the grease bolt, improved the notch problem a lot but is still present (and getting worse). hope that the gonzo fix would do the trick, cause the bike is getting dangerous in the traffic...

Hi folks.
New to the forum and busy reading all the great threads.
I just picked up a 2012 mp3 300 with 3000km on the clock and wondering if I need to adjust the nuts on both sides and pack with grease as a preventive measure or has Piaggio sorted the notching of the bottom race.
Also is it possible to rotate the bottom race (say 90 deg) on each side also so as to have the one point the notch appears fresh for a few rotations if it does appear ( as well as having your Gonzo twist also)

Will also sort my profile out asap

Cheers Eden

Adelaide Australia

I now have 50000km on my 400 and had the bearings adjusted per the instructions. Took mine in for a service Monday and the tech there said that at the next service they will need to be replaced. I picked up the grease bolt and grease mine every 5000km. Once at the service by Piaggio and the next one at the half way point. I have had a slight notch on mine for about 20000km but it will be time at the next service for replacement. Total cost for replacement plus labor is around $500.00. If I had a garage, I would do it myself, but I don't have one so the dealer will wind up doing it at my 60000km service. In miles, that puts me at around 38000, so I would say that this is pretty good for the most part compared to what I have read throughout this thread.

I have about 14000 miles on my MP3 500 (2010) I have greased up with the bolt aleast twice During riding season with marine grease so far no notice of the notch. The bike is garage kept and only gets wet if I get caught in the rain, hopefully it won't appear it is one of three bikes that I ride.

Thanks Gonzo!

Have just done the Gonzo tweak to the bearing on my MP3-400. Brilliant result - as if I'd doubt an Aussie's method!

March 2016 when the MP3 went through its annual road worthiness check [Warrant of Fitness - WoF] the inspector commented that there was a notch and that it would not pass another WoF unless the bearings were replaced - the check was done in the workshop of a bike dealer. The mileage was 28500km [17800 miles].

Come March 2017 and the WoF expired so the MP3 was put to one side, for three months, while the bearing notch issue was contemplated over many coffees and after much reading on this forum. By this time the notch was quite noticeable at 31800km [19800 miles]. Within the last two weeks the notch issue was tackled using the Gonzo tweak - admittedly it took longer to remove the tupperware than to do the tweak. Day 1 was removal of the tupperware and then dealing with each bearing. Day 2 was greasing and checking and then replacing the tupperware. Notch gone!

The MP3 has since been inspected for its WoF and passed with flying colours.

Edlev, I suggest you start greasing as part of regular maintenance and don't worry about the bearing unless there's a problem. I've got 48,000 miles on my 400, have greased every 10,000 miles or so, and the bearings are still fine.

Im using a thinner crhome molly disulphide on the top bearings and a lithum grease on the lower bearings.
Lubing every 5k miles.
If anyone wants any help in south UK your welcome to pop your bike down for a lube session, just bring beer.


Now its cold here in UK iv put disulphide in both top and bottom bearings. What a differance it makes the bike almost auto steer !!

Theory 3 1/2:
Nobody, but nobody mounts a roller bearing where it can be in the dirt and rain and muck of the road --- Oh Wait :Piaggio does. My better sealed GL500 Honda did develop a notch- after 40K miles, and its bearing is under a cap and rubber seal. Iowa has over 60% gravel farm to market and dust producing roads These are murder on unsealed bearings like Piaggio steering rollers. I got the notch at about 10K miles. \

If I do the GonzoB tweek, and the needle grease job, would a hose clamp on a rubber skirt help at all?

What have you got to lose!?

I just use a punch I already had and a hammer to do my 2 MP3s. I'm too cheap to buy a special tool if I don't really have to.

in this thread

http://modernvespa.com/forum/post2220090#2220090

there is a partnumber for some dust seals that could fit.

I had my bearings replaced at the 60000km service. What a huge difference. Took my first corner and was surprised at how easy it went over now. Had my bearings adjusted to the point where there was no more adjustment and wished I had just replaced them many miles ago. Truly amazing how good the new bearings feel when riding and cornering. I have the grease bolt so will be doing them at the halfway point of my interval services.

I grease mine every fall just before winter storage. That way moisture from the fall/winter season doesn't affect them while sitting.

Even though I owned one of the first MP3's in the US back in 08. I'm not an expert on these bikes, however working as a design engineer and pilot for rotary winged drone aircraft, (www.rotory.com) I can tell you this system is designed in error.

While the tapered bearing might be the most cost-effective method which is why they used it, tapered bearing cannot tolerate short movements with "Load". The rotor blades on a helicopter suffer from this same problem because they only move around 6 degrees (6+ to 6-) in flight. This is the same problem on the MP3 since it primarily only moves only a few degrees when riding.

We cured this same problem in helicopters by installing a "Thrust" bearing to work along side of the roller bearings. This bearing is what's lacking on the MP3 so therefore it will always be a problem.

A "Thrust" bearing removes the weight or load from the tapered roller and will prevent notching. The notching the MP3 suffers from is caused by the constant hammering in one position on the bearing. Every time you hit a imperfection in the road, the full load goes to that same spot on the bearing until it finally compresses or wears out the race. With a thrust bearing these same loads are now applied equally to "Only" the thrust bearing where it is dispersed equally to all the bearings surface. This allows the tapered bearing to now just support the shaft as it was designed.

I included a drawing which shows a typical installation of a thrust bearing on a helicopter which is typical of the MP3 axle. This system like the MP3 has bearing(s) that support the shaft somewhat like our existing tapered bearings on the MP3. The "Thrust" bearing on the rotor head now supports all the outward loads from centrifugal force. This same bearing installed on the lower end of the Mp3 would support the weight of the axle removing all the vertical forces caused by the weight of the bike and impact forces from the road surfaces, so the tapered bearings only job would be to support the shaft.

Mike

As long as the thrust bearing depends on either balls (point contact) or cones (line contact), it will suffer the same fate. And if you are suggesting a combination planar contact thrust bearing to take the weight and impact, then a roller bearing of some type to take radial loads, then yeah, you're also talking added expense. And complexity. In which case I wonder, what design bearing is used in most motorcycle front ends (where there is only one set of bearings)?

The root issue in the case of MP3 was a combination of insufficient lubrication and too-tight installation at the factory.

Added to which, all motorcycles suffer from notchy bearings eventually. Ivana Tinkle's GTS has just developed a slight notch at 40,500 miles. I had to replace the bearings on my UK GT not so long ago as well, imminent MOT failure.

As above, the MP3's are particularly prone because of the extra weight of the front end. Also the front suspension gets hammered more than other bikes because there's not nearly so much 'road feel' feedback via the bars themselves - so riders tend to hammer over surfaces that other riders might take more sedately. I know I used to!

The thrust bearing will not suffer the same problem because unlike the tapered bearings they are supporting the weight at a 90 degree different angle than the tapered bearings.

In addition with the thrust bearing installed at the bottom of the shaft, you no longer need a tapered bearing on the shaft because they no longer have to carry the weight of the axle.

There is no assumptions with this proposed system we have been using it for over 30 years now. We suffered the same exact problems, this is the fix!

There is one important factor in this interesting discussion which has not been mentioned. Taper roller bearings are typically installed with pre-load because when used in wheel bearings or similar they can tolerate this and it removes the need for exact adjustment of bearing play. However in steering bearing installations where pre-load is used the rolling elements are never able to move relative to the races and always return to precisely the same point of line contact. Therefore they stay in the same position for long periods, thus leading to indentation or pitting of the races.
The separate thrust bearing described by Lowoncash does not suffer this problem because it is not assembled with preload and the bearing elements therefore adopt random positions relative to the races because they float when in a no load condition. If the MP3 bearings are adjusted with no preload they have a much longer life expectancy and this is why the factory changed the installation instructions. Getting precisely no pre-load when adjusting them is tricky so personally I would be happier with some slight free play.

The MP3 problem was also exacerbated by lack of grease and failure to protect the lower bearing from road spray.

You may get a no-load condition on helicopter blades (I don't know) but you never do on motorcycle forks. That is, unless you're in the habit of jacking up the front each time you park, with free-play in the bearings...

my 2009 mp3 500 has 18,000km .. I dont feel any issues with my steering. so far.

the bearing part number is 32008. I would replace with high quality bearing when the time comes. SKF FAG Timkin

Last edited by jerryd on Sun, 25 Aug 2019 14:31:57 +0000; edited 1 time

Replaced my steering bearings over the Christmas break in 40 degree Celsius heat. These pics are very helpful.
How to remove the steering tapered bearings
Used a dremel to cut off the lower bearing cage & fashioned up a tool from a cup head bolt and multi grips to get the inner race out.
Disconnecting the brake lines & steering lock lines was straightforward. Refilled the hydraulic steering lines from bottom up with a big syringe, very easy. Brake lines filled from top & air removed using a cable tie on right hand brake lever overnight, air will come out as long as you can get some pressure in the brake lines.
While the job is time consuming first time, you should be able to do it again within a day once you have the know-how. The worst part is the Lower bearing cage and race which are the same diameter as the steering tube, heat up the replacement part with a heat gun before putting back on the tube.
My advice is that if the Notch is present, the best approach is to replace the bearings and inner race, pack the bearings and use the grease bolt regularly.
The Gonzo tweak is a good short term fix in the absence of replacing bearings and races.

I know GonzoB hasn't posted on MV for over 4 years, but my mate did a Gonzo Tweek on his 2008 Fuoco 500 yesterday, took it for a spin last night, good as new, so thanks GonzoB

It is not as hard as people describe just to replace the bearing. Got both mine replaced in just one day.

I read the first comment in the thread. I am not a mechanic, but my point of view is that I am riding this scooter and I have my life in my hands, I would prefer to have the service done by authorised mechanic and pay for what it is worth. If you have a friend who can do a pro job, by all means go for it, but I hate to do something and then something wrong happens, it is your life, no one else, need to mention you never know what happens in an accident and you may hurt others. I maybe wrong, but this is my point of view,

Safe Riding all.

just because an "authorized Mechanic" worked on the scooter does not mean he is worth a crap.

lots of authorized mechanics leave tools in vehicles, not fully tighten nuts and bolts to specs, say they change parts and did not.

my brother had a BMW dealer install a new tire when he was visiting me and they TOTTALLY fucked -up the balance so bad he had to static balance is on the bike after a hundred miles heading to his destination. Just to get it close enough so it would not bounce up and down.

I agree with you that few or some authorised mechanics know nothing, I had one who change my rear tyre and forgot either to tighten some nut or to put a part in, the rear tyre used to shake and make noise which led to the parking brake cable getting damaged and break just near the spring area. So this is not the norm, but most authorised mechanics are good at their job, I don't mean the exceptions.

I have worked at motorcycle and car dealers as a tech. There are lots of techs that shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a tool box.

I also agree with you, read my response to the comment above. But what both of you are raising a different point I am stating. There are few or some mechanics who know nothing, but that the exception, I am not stating to go to them. My point is have someone qualified to do the major work on the scooter/bike/car and not try to save money unless you know who is doing the work is qualified to do it, otherwise saving few dollars will increase the risk on your life. This is my point.

If you feel you can't do it yourself, then certainly I agree with you.

However, I always ask myself (with no disrespect to professional mechanics) that if they are so far in front of me that I *have* to give them the work rather than DIY - how come they're the mechanics rather than, say, the designers? If the answer is 'they love the job, and rather stay hands-on' then fine, but then they'd be the head honcho there, for sure. I don't like giving my bikes (or cars come to that) over to someone who is basically doing piece-work and watching the clock rather than on a wage or salary.

I forgot to mention in my first comment that I am not a mechanic and my knowledge is very basic, can change oil, change brake pad etc... but do know mechanical knowledge, so I think we are saying the same thing but in different way.

Hello All,
It is good to see this thread is still active, I wrote a comment and others put their comments. Great!
I am not a mechanic, and I read the above, as am not a mechanic, I did not understand what to do. Has someone do a Youtube video or explain that in English terms (to explain what is meant). I have a friend who has a body shop and a friend whose is a mechanic, so they can help but I would like to understand that myself too.
Other point I read in some of the comments, that this is a temp solution, so my question, is it worth spending the time to do it, or just fix my scooter, I have a 400ie, 2009 and it has just passed the 41,000 kilo meter mark,
thanks all,

I'm preparing myself to do The Gonzo Tweak. I didn't found any Youtube video about it. I'm checking the french forum and this one also.
I already bought a 2nd hand tool to make it easy p/n 020892Y
It's seems to worth doing it as some people have done it twice.

It's seems possible to be done without a lot of knowlege.

Some videos links
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YMzrDSN6tc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2LZEMXtjJY
In French a person made holes in the tube to turn without unassembling all.
It's his second mp3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U51OAJxh32o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6ByDvCCmBQ

There is some of video about changing the bearings but it's much more job to be done as you need to diconnect breakes tubes, elec wires,.. and change the bearings.

[edit] I've edited your post to give links that Chrome users can follow. Please read:
http://modernvespa.com/forum/post2405057#2405057
- jimc [/edit]

Notch nor more! Tools schmools! Hammer and screwdriver for the din nuts. 2 full turns provided enough room to tweek the bearing. Easy Peasy. Thanks Gonzo

Resurrecting this as I just got a BV500 and its notched pretty significantly, Ordered new bearing kit, but if this works in the mean time then ill be a Gonzo deciple.

I've read this thread with interest as bought a 500 with a pronounced notch which made it tricky to ride.

After reading this thread, my mechanic friend managed to apply the Gonzo magic and the notch is now gone and all greased up.

Thanks to everyone who have contributed to this thread and provide this valuable wealth of experience.

The Gonzo fix, for me, last only 2-3 weeks.
I have done it 2 times so far. My notch is not huge and I can still manage it at very low speed.
Knowing how long it took me to change the bearing on my first MP3, I'm waiting and try to get the maximum out of this set.