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@rjeffb avatar
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Bracketmeister
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UTC quote
EDIT: The UPP (Universal Passenger Peg) solution has its own thread here UPP Passenger Peg Bracket but I invite members to continue to post ideas and experiments regarding the best way to provide better footholds for your passengers.

(Formerly called "They ought to lock me up," changed title when the thread developed into something bigger)

----------------------------------

I know this is a crazy idea, and while I realize I'll never convince LarryLarry, I PROMISE this is not just a scheme to sell more UFPs.

I came up with the below idea as a mounting point for passenger pegs. To be sure, this cannot support the full weight of a passenger and I am not in any way recommending it, but for something like providing just a place for the toes to go while the heel is firmly on the floorboard I think it may be possible. It's definitely out of the way of the driver's calves when stopped flatfooted, so that's something anyway.

I'll try it out at various angles and peg positions and report back this weekend.
Yes, I know that one speednut is not going to hold a lot of weight.
Yes, I know that one speednut is not going to hold a lot of weight.
Yes, I know I need to put a spacer in there. And yes, I know I'm probably insane!
Yes, I know I need to put a spacer in there. And yes, I know I'm probably insane!
⚠️ Last edited by rjeffb on UTC; edited 5 times
@fuzzy avatar
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UTC quote
If you take the plastic cover off that the passenger diamond plate is in there are 3 screws with solid mounting points. Wouldn't an adaption of the UFP using these screw points give a passenger peg that can take some weight like the UFP. Would not be as easy an adaption for us with 400/250s but easy for 500 owners to install.
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The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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UTC quote
Only one of those 'big screws' give any solid support (IIRC it's the rear-most Allen-keyed one), the rest just join the top plastic to the bottom, and are total over-kill.
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UTC quote
So, a "Y" shaped piece with one leg bolted to the rear bolt on the front floor-board and the other leg bolted to the front bolt on the rear floor-board. Then bend the "tail" down and drill mounting holes in it. Spacers under the bracket where it bolts to the scoot. Yer a genius, BracketMeister.
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UTC quote
My head is about to explode. I've got a dozen ideas all running at once and I need a weekend to try them all!

One of them centers on this observation: the angle of the peg ear is almost identical to the angle of the leading edge of the tupperware in front of the rear passenger floorboard. Hmm, contacting parallel surfaces = off-axis support?

And multiple holes under the diamondplate? Can a rubber bumper offload the weight of a footpeg in this situation? (YaYaDave and I came up with that one simultaneously.)

Etc etc...fortunately, I still have that leftover left-hand UFP/LT from last year I can experiment with. I may wind up finding out just how hard it is to saw through 314 stainless soon!
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2009 MP3-500 aka Red Dog 2007 Vespa 250ie
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UTC quote
Man oh man Jeff, that is really butt-ugly. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if you could figure out a way to use it as a bottle opener? Woof! Clown emoticon

BTW, in case you missed it the most drop-dead passenger foot rests I've seen to date are the ones fabbed up by Bravo 2-4. I saw them recently when he stopped by for a visit and immediately recommended he should make them for us non-skilled normal folks. I think he's posted pics on the forum somewhere but I'm not sure how to find them so maybe he'll be kind to us and do a re-post on a new thread.

BTW#2 - I have one of your early sets of brackets and use them every time I ride. Thanks again for bringing them to us.

LL75 Razz emoticon
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UTC quote
Proof of concept, Larry. Elegance comes later. And a concept that probably won't work, but...

Several people have come up with various solutions, but so far I have not seen anyone with a bracket that sets the footpeg actually at the angle that at least in the case of me and my passenger, her feet actually rest. Which (because she has to sit with legs splayed out to accommodate my girth) is with her feet angled outwards at about a 30 degree angle, just in front of and below the passenger floorboard area.

More to the point, she told me she expects me to come up with a footpeg solution for her. Challenge!
UTC

Molto Verboso
Piaggio mp3 500
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UTC quote
My sweet bride will love it!!!!!!!!! Keep thinking while you are in the insane asylum.. If you find the solution it may be your retribution!!!
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UTC quote
rjeffb wrote:
Several people have come up with various solutions, but so far I have not seen anyone with a bracket that sets the footpeg actually at the angle that at least in the case of me and my passenger, her feet actually rest. Which (because she has to sit with legs splayed out to accommodate my girth) is with her feet angled outwards at about a 30 degree angle, just in front of and below the passenger floorboard area.
Except mine. And you can stand on it with all your weight. So shes has no fear while pushing off the pegs. Did some upgrades too.
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UTC quote
>Except mine. And you can stand on it with all your weight. So shes has no fear while pushing off the pegs. Did some upgrades too.

True enough, I believe I had already given you credit for the only rock-solid, no-compromise solution so far. But I'm thinking more along the lines of the UFP, something that would take only a minute and a wrench to affix.

Nonetheless, if you were to market your bracket, I know you'd have customers waiting. You still need to find a way to break it down to fit through the security ring - and into a reasonably sized shipping box!
@old_as_dirt avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 GTS
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UTC quote
rjeffb wrote:
>Except mine. And you can stand on it with all your weight. So shes has no fear while pushing off the pegs. Did some upgrades too.

True enough, I believe I had already given you credit for the only rock-solid, no-compromise solution so far. But I'm thinking more along the lines of the UFP, something that would take only a minute and a wrench to affix.

Nonetheless, if you were to market your bracket, I know you'd have customers waiting. You still need to find a way to break it down to fit through the security ring - and into a reasonably sized shipping box!
there is a way to make it universal to the 250's 400's and 500's
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UTC quote
Speaking of which - can somebody tell me if the step-down from the passenger area to the driver floorboard is the same between the 500 and the 400, and if the angle at which the tupperware slopes down in front of the passenger floorboard is the same between the two scooters? I just thought of another, much simpler way this might be accomplished by putting an additional bend in the UFP and possibly drilling a new screw hole. Instead of the UFP peg ear being at an angle - which is important for the driver, not as important for the passenger - if the peg ear sits vertical, then the UFP could sit at the rear of the driver's floorboard and use the rearmost screw, then ride up and onto the passenger's floorboard and be secured there as well. It would be the back of the UFP that would slope up (pointing backwards) instead of the front (pointing forward) the way it is used for the driver.

Twisting under torque might be fixed by a rubber bumper just like the regular mounting.

In another approach that just occurred to me, I gotta pull that whole passenger floorboard off and eyeball what's under there. I was looking at a panels-removed photo of the /500 and on the right side there is a welded vertical frame strut that passes about 3" in front of the engine cylinder - it has some massive grounding cable screwed near the top. That strut has an empty hole (at least, when the tupperware is off) that is in an ideal position to attach a footpeg to, but a) I'm not sure what its clearance would have to be with the floorboard riser removed to avoid having to drill big, long holes through the riser, b) it would have to be an incredibly long footpeg or more like a footpeg plus a footpeg extender, and c) I don't know if that same hole exists on the left side or what might interfere on that side.
⚠️ Last edited by rjeffb on UTC; edited 1 time
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UTC quote
My problem is repeatability on the bends and having to rely on others to weld. Though I could learn myself, I don't have tons of disposable time. I posted so others could do it. If comfort for the wives is worth $250.00 with a min of 5 orders, we'd talk. I'm sure you will be victorious and feed the masses. Looking forward to see the results of your wizardry.
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UTC quote
jimc wrote:
Only one of those 'big screws' give any solid support (IIRC it's the rear-most Allen-keyed one), the rest just join the top plastic to the bottom, and are total over-kill.
Think that is the case. Picture from when I was working on the new footpads seem to bear that out.
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
rjeffb wrote:
My head is about to explode. I've got a dozen ideas all running at once and I need a weekend to try them all!

One of them centers on this observation: the angle of the peg ear is almost identical to the angle of the leading edge of the tupperware in front of the rear passenger floorboard. Hmm, contacting parallel surfaces = off-axis support?

And multiple holes under the diamondplate? Can a rubber bumper offload the weight of a footpeg in this situation? (YaYaDave and I came up with that one simultaneously.)

Etc etc...fortunately, I still have that leftover left-hand UFP/LT from last year I can experiment with. I may wind up finding out just how hard it is to saw through 314 stainless soon!
Also, some pictures of the forward foot rest area were in this thread on tunnel bag installation. Might be of help in preventing head explosion... I might have more pictures somewhere.
Aprilia Tunnel Bag Installation on Mp3 500
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MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
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UTC quote
You should be commited!!!! Like the way you and others here just keep thinking...what makes this group so great!
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UTC quote
Cheap Fix!
I got it, I got it! Less than $60 going in and great for that emergency run to the nearest gas stop with can in hand. Available in all sizes, see eBay today.

LL75 Razz emoticon
This may be the final solution
This may be the final solution
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UTC quote
Re: Cheap Fix!
larrylarry's Photo Caption: "This may be the final solution"


I better be careful. My life insurance is all paid up...my wife may be looking for the "final solution"!
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Shannon, Goose and I spent some time outside the other day mulling this over. His idea (he does some machining at work) was to take the diamond plate off the front and back, use the sturdiest of the screws on BOTH footboards and have something fabricated that replaced the diamond plate out of a single sheet with some tubular support brackets for the footpegs welded in. His second idea was MJM's, except instead of welding he wanted to tap into the frame and bolt it on. Ideas, criticisms???? Goose says her knees will hurt going to NOLA in June
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UTC quote
GeorgiaGirl wrote:
Shannon, Goose and I spent some time outside the other day mulling this over. His idea (he does some machining at work) was to take the diamond plate off the front and back, use the sturdiest of the screws on BOTH footboards and have something fabricated that replaced the diamond plate out of a single sheet with some tubular support brackets for the footpegs welded in. His second idea was MJM's, except instead of welding he wanted to tap into the frame and bolt it on. Ideas, criticisms???? Goose says her knees will hurt going to NOLA in June
I am considering, among other things, a version of the UFP that would start at the rear screw of the driver floorboard, follow up the pillon riser, then secure to the front screw of the passenger floorboard. But when I pull the passenger board off this weekend I may well find something that sends me off in an entirely different direction. If you are willing to do sawing and welding then you will be hard pressed to beat Mike's solution but I want something plug and play.
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UTC quote
rjeffb wrote:
GeorgiaGirl wrote:
Shannon, Goose and I spent some time outside the other day mulling this over. His idea (he does some machining at work) was to take the diamond plate off the front and back, use the sturdiest of the screws on BOTH footboards and have something fabricated that replaced the diamond plate out of a single sheet with some tubular support brackets for the footpegs welded in. His second idea was MJM's, except instead of welding he wanted to tap into the frame and bolt it on. Ideas, criticisms???? Goose says her knees will hurt going to NOLA in June
I am considering, among other things, a version of the UFP that would start at the rear screw of the driver floorboard, follow up the pillon riser, then secure to the front screw of the passenger floorboard. But when I pull the passenger board off this weekend I may well find something that sends me off in an entirely different direction. If you are willing to do sawing and welding then you will be hard pressed to beat Mike's solution but I want something plug and play.
check you messages I sent you some pics
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UTC quote
GeorgiaGirl wrote:
Shannon, Goose and I spent some time outside the other day mulling this over. His idea (he does some machining at work) was to take the diamond plate off the front and back, use the sturdiest of the screws on BOTH footboards and have something fabricated that replaced the diamond plate out of a single sheet with some tubular support brackets for the footpegs welded in. His second idea was MJM's, except instead of welding he wanted to tap into the frame and bolt it on. Ideas, criticisms???? Goose says her knees will hurt going to NOLA in June
Did he take the plastic splash guard off of the bottom to see what's there?
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UTC quote
We have before - we had the whole show apart in the den. This time was just a quick lookee-loo though. We will look for real later. I'm assuming that means tapping and bolting didn't look like such a good choice once you got the bike apart?
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UTC quote
Georgiagirl has a good idea, issue is all the cutting and precise bending. Get a piece of cardboard, lay it out on the front floor board, then cut & trim to raise a step and angle for a comfortable footing of passenger; then bend back down for sizing of back floor plate. Once a pattern is made, it could be flattened out and cut from metal. Leaving a bending angle and bendable material use! Both floor boards would add rigid support, at best we can find. No easy task to accomplish, and passengers position may vary immensly? Now I need to find mjm's posting to review his idea? All ideas are great, now to weigh them all out.
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UTC quote
Gee, all of this headache about the rear footboards almost makes me glad I'm single...
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UTC quote
rjeffb wrote:
.. But when I pull the passenger board off this weekend I may well find something that sends me off in an entirely different direction...
If you haven't pulled the pillion footplates apart before beware of the hidden screw that comes up from below which holds the plastic plate in place. It's at the front inside corner of the footplate. You need to unscrew the lower side covers to get at it. It's a pain. It's not done up tightly, so it feels like it should unclip, but it doesn't.

Gonzo
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Thanks Gonzo, Old As Dirt had already PMd me with that adviso (with pictures, thanks Doug!) so I am prepared. I believe it will be worth the trouble though, because I see lots of interesting potential connection points lurking under there.

OAD tells me that some of these connection points are shared between the different models. I don't suppose anybody has a closeup picture of a /250/300/400 with the passenger footrest removed...
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UTC quote
rjeffb wrote:
Thanks Gonzo, Old As Dirt had already PMd me with that adviso (with pictures, thanks Doug!) so I am prepared. I believe it will be worth the trouble though, because I see lots of interesting potential connection points lurking under there.

OAD tells me that some of these connection points are shared between the different models. I don't suppose anybody has a closeup picture of a /250/300/400 with the passenger footrest removed...
Fuzzy and I looked at his 400 and the allen bolt hole is the same, the 400 does not have anything more than that because that is all that is needed for the whole floor board, the 500 has the 2 large phillips with the cut ouot and clips just for that additional pass floor board piece piaggio puts on them.
@fuzzy avatar
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UTC quote
There is nothing to remove but a screw that has no apparent purpose on my MP3 400. The little raised section is molded in not bolted on.

OAD and I were looking at this on our ride last weekend and believe it would not be too difficult to make a cut in the tupperware and add the speed nuts that are on the 500.
Passenger foot rest with screw removed.
Passenger foot rest with screw removed.
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UTC quote
CubsKing99 wrote:
Gee, all of this headache about the rear footboards almost makes me glad I'm single...
Hah! You don't know what you're missing when you take teh curve hot and she's holding on tight....
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UTC quote
YES!!

I know there will be a workable solution or 2 out of this, and I'd like to come by and pick up a pair before Mem Day wkend.
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UTC quote
Fuzzy wrote:
There is nothing to remove but a screw that has no apparent purpose on my MP3 400. The little raised section is molded in not bolted on.

OAD and I were looking at this on our ride last weekend and believe it would not be too difficult to make a cut in the tupperware and add the speed nuts that are on the 500.
Hmm, the raised section being molded in is frustrating to say the least. I was really counting on the removal of that to make a universal solution.
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UTC quote
UPP
The challenge is on: Mem Day wkend deadline to create the Ultimate Passenger Peg (UPP)<superscript>TM</superscript>.
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UTC quote
Sorry, ingenuity refuses to be rushed.
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UTC quote
I'm not saying yes...
...but I'm not saying no, either. I may have a passenger footpeg solution. Or not: even if this works - I have to do some experiments with a passenger to confirm - there are some very severe limitations on this idea.

First of all, this is not mjm50cal's footpeg solution. I never intended it to be; this is to Mike's passenger footpegs what the UFPs are to emtwo's and RamberDan's driver footpegs, 90% of the functionality but able to be installed with little skill and minimal tools in a couple of minutes. No sawing, no welding, no modifications to the scooter, but on the other hand, you shouldn't be standing up on them and jumping up and down either.

Secondly, and this is a heartbreaker, this is an option only for /500/Fuoco owners. I was terribly disappointed to learn the the /500 does not share the same passenger riser design as the rest of the MP3 line, because once I took apart the floorboard riser I saw instantly that it was absurd to ever think that a footpeg could be safely attached to it: the diamondplate screws to a piece of plastic, which screws to a piece of plastic, which except for one screw attaches to yet another piece of plastic. As you'll see, what is under that removable riser is key to my idea. Removing the diamondplate (B24's picture above) shows a bunch of what appear to be beefy screws but as was pointed out they don't attach to anything solid. And as I was warned, there is a hidden upside-down tapping screw underneath, but I immediately saw that it served no functional purpose and just ripped the riser off, leaving a chunk of plastic attached to the screw (Figure 1, inboard). I eventually removed that screw with a pair of pliers. EDIT: Old As Dirt tells me that the underlying setup is the same between the models, so maybe there's hope?

I tried mounting a UFP/XT between the two forward speednuts (Figure 2) and angled over the inboard speednut (Figure 3). The problem was that the /XT is far enough forward that it jams me in the calf when standing in the driver's seat. Ironically, last year's UFP/LT was a perfect fit in this regard (Figure 4) - of course, I only have the one left bracket remaining from last year! I found that by the judicious use of the different kind of screws I had just removed while dismantling the riser, I could box in the bracket and make it very resistant to moving even though only one screw really holds it down (Figure 5). The real trick to this is that the bracket happens to also be pressed against several off-axis surfaces: the upward arc contacts the plastic ridge in front of the passenger floorboard, and the peg ear rests on the outboard side of that ridge. That gives a lot of reinforcement!

Even so, the bumper is of no use because the peg holes are forward of the riser, so there is still some noticeable flex. Furthermore, even though I have that rear screw going directly into the "frame," it's really still just that U-channel that I warn people against bending by putting all their weight on with the driver's pegs. This therefore may not wind up being a "full foot" solution. However, I found that putting the heel on the floorboard and the toe on the peg places my foot at the perfect height and angle (Figure 6).

Okay, so what's next?

Obviously I need to try this out with a passenger. I am going to use this as an excuse to order a pair of those Rivco pegs everybody's been raving about, but ultimately I suspect that this position will call for a short peg - not because of lean clearance, of which there is plenty, but to dissuade passengers from putting anything but their toes on them. But we'll see.

This could be done right now with UFP/LTs - and possibly UFP/3s, but I am not sure about the flex (if you are a /500 owner with UFP/3s, by all means try this out - you've been looking for an excuse to buy those new UFP/XTs for up front anyway, right?). Maybe I'll wind up finding somebody who'd trade me their /LTs for a brand-new /XT? (Talk about ironic!)

But longer term, I have in my mind a bracket designed specifically for this purpose, a "UPP," as it were (sorry Ken, somebody already thought of that before). Wider to cover most of the floorboard area and to allow screwing down to all three anchor points. The arc turned into a sharp bend to match the floorboard ridge. The peg ear moved back a little to install a bumper and eliminate flex (and perhaps take the full-foot weight of the passenger) and have the entire ridge width to stabilize it.

Is there a market, especially considering that /250s /300s /400s are out? I can certainly design it, but these are going to be more expensive that the UFP under the best of circumstances because there's going to be much more metal. I've managed to hold down the price of UFPs while continuing to incorporate improvements because I've kept ordering them in larger and larger quantities, but before they were known to fit models other than the /500 I only sold 18 of them in an entire year. And that was for driver's pegs, for which there was presumably a lot more demand than for passengers.

Would you pay $150? $200? What do you think?
Figure 1. Plastic on plastic on plastic! The only frame screw is the big hole all the way to the right.
Figure 1. Plastic on plastic on plastic! The only frame screw is the big hole all the way to the right.
Figure 2. Proof-of-concept, Larry, not to be viewed as final!
Figure 2. Proof-of-concept, Larry, not to be viewed as final!
Figure 3. Note cheesy hollow plastic floorboard riser on ground to left.
Figure 3. Note cheesy hollow plastic floorboard riser on ground to left.
Figure 4. Will this create a "gray market" in /LTs the way the LT unexpectedly created one for the UFP/3?
Figure 4. Will this create a "gray market" in /LTs the way the LT unexpectedly created one for the UFP/3?
Figure 5. Boxed in on all sides!
Figure 5. Boxed in on all sides!
Figure 6. Perfect and comfy.
Figure 6. Perfect and comfy.
⚠️ Last edited by rjeffb on UTC; edited 2 times
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UTC quote
Hi Jeff.

The idea's good. In your design the pillion peg would be in about the same position (front/rear-wise) as the pillion peg concept that I used. That was the Redsparky/ScooterMeister solution of a Harley peg bolted on to the inner 6mm screw. In the Harley peg solution the weight of the pillion is taken largely on the plastic support under the Harley peg, but it's still not very strong - there's room for improvement.

I think it's a bad idea to mount the peg any further forward than this. If you have a look at Mjm50cal's (engineeringly-great) solution, the pillion's feet are significantly further forward, and it means that, even though the footpegs are much more solidly mounted, the pillion can't use them to lift the pillion's backside off the seat on rough roads, etc. From a pillion comfort point of view it's bad. You have to have really good suspension, or all the road shock goes straight up the pillion's spine.

What I'd really prefer is to mount the pegs further back. As you probably know, however, the side panels bulge out sideways just after where the pillion's calves go, so moving them back would not be comfortable.

In summary, I think having the pillion's instep directly over the bump at the front of the pillion footplate is about right - no further forward.

Gonzo
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UTC quote
I've been thinking of mounting a length of 5/8" square stock to the aluminum plates (bolt through the plates with a relief hole drilled into plastic for the bolt ends to go into) and mounting flip up pegs similar to how I mounted my forward pegs. It'd only work on the 500, but it would work. The bar would extend past the floorboards just enough to let the pegs drop down. This would add several foot positions for the passenger, the pegs and the bar would lift the front of the foot when rested on the floor plate. I usually ride solo, (this is my commuter vehicle) so this hasn't been a high priority.
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UTC quote
Jeff why are the 250/400's out? suing what you have mocked up so far is the same floor board they have also. The only thing they would have to do is but out for a clip and install a clip so far. Don't count them out.

Edit I will have to find some time to do some cardboard mock ups. I was thinking of coming up with the peg .
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UTC quote
GonzoB wrote:
I think it's a bad idea to mount the peg any further forward than this. If you have a look at Mjm50cal's (engineeringly-great) solution, the pillion's feet are significantly further forward, and it means that, even though the footpegs are much more solidly mounted, the pillion can't use them to lift the pillion's backside off the seat on rough roads, etc.
I think that there is more to consider.
My wife, at a perfect 5' 7 3/8", needed to stretch her legs out. More forward and slightly outward was where I needed to go. A shorter pillion with shorter legs would need to have a closer peg. That is why there is 3 mounting locations for the peg position.
Because I have a Givi 52L with backrest she can easily push off and lift her butt up off the seat. Without the Givi she would have to pull on me to lift her butt off the seat.
To go anymore rearward, would really splay the pillions legs out regardless of size. A tall person really couldn't go straight down with there legs. Also, the further you go back from where I located my pegs, the significantly wider you have to go.
I'm pretty sure that the PPS will fit on all the MP3s. And it is a direct bolt on with the only caveat being the need to remove the never used lock loop.

Mike Nerd emoticon
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mjm50cal wrote:
I think that there is more to consider.
My wife, at a perfect 5' 7 3/8", needed to stretch her legs out. More forward and slightly outward was where I needed to go. A shorter pillion with shorter legs would need to have a closer peg. That is why there is 3 mounting locations for the peg position.
Because I have a Givi 52L with backrest she can easily push off and lift her butt up off the seat. Without the Givi she would have to pull on me to lift her butt off the seat.
To go anymore rearward, would really splay the pillions legs out regardless of size. A tall person really couldn't go straight down with there legs. Also, the further you go back from where I located my pegs, the significantly wider you have to go.
I'm pretty sure that the PPS will fit on all the MP3s. And it is a direct bolt on with the only caveat being the need to remove the never used lock loop.

Mike Nerd emoticon
Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, Mike.

I understand the need for comfort - for stretching the legs, but it's my contention that with your feet forward, your legs don't provide any support for your body. It amazes me that blokes on Harleys ride around with only highway pegs. They must have sore backs.

I had another look at your photos, and I had missed the adjustability, but it would have been better to have the adjustability backwards as well.

Please don't take my comments as a negative. I'm putting in my two-penneth-worth to provide input for development.

I think the work you've done is outstanding.

Gonzo
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UTC quote
old as dirt wrote:
Jeff why are the 250/400's out? suing what you have mocked up so far is the same floor board they have also. The only thing they would have to do is but out for a clip and install a clip so far. Don't count them out.

Edit I will have to find some time to do some cardboard mock ups. I was thinking of coming up with the peg .
This may be a case of photographic perspective, where in a two-dimensional photo a surface that's receding looks like it is poking out and vise-versa? Because when I compare my Figure 1 to the picture that Fuzzy posted, to me they look significantly different: the /500 has a raised ridge in from of the footpad while I could swear the /400 has a step-down in front of it (but without a photo taken from the side, that could be an optical illusion).

Are you saying that the /400 footpad has a raised ridge in front of it, and that it is the same distance from the frame screw?
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