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rjeffb wrote:
old as dirt wrote:
Jeff why are the 250/400's out? suing what you have mocked up so far is the same floor board they have also. The only thing they would have to do is but out for a clip and install a clip so far. Don't count them out.

Edit I will have to find some time to do some cardboard mock ups. I was thinking of coming up with the peg .
This may be a case of photographic perspective, where in a two-dimensional photo a surface that's receding looks like it is poking out and vise-versa? Because when I compare my Figure 1 to the picture that Fuzzy posted, to me they look significantly different: the /500 has a raised ridge in from of the footpad while I could swear the /400 has a step-down in front of it (but without a photo taken from the side, that could be an optical illusion).

Are you saying that the /400 footpad has a raised ridge in front of it, and that it is the same distance from the frame screw?
yes the 400 is the same as the 500 underneath the extra piece piaggio puts on for the 500. Folks have bought the 500 floor board extra pieces and installed them on the 400's .
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I think Fuzzy's photo is one of those optical illusions where you can make a surface appear to recede or poke out just by staring at it.

Brass tacks: can somebody with a /250/400 who owns a set of UFPs simply try putting the bracket on the rear pad as I show in my photos (better would be to the take a top and profile photo of it but I'm not getting greedy:P) and see if this works? It'll take all of two minutes, thanks!
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rjeffb wrote:
old as dirt wrote:
Jeff why are the 250/400's out? suing what you have mocked up so far is the same floor board they have also. The only thing they would have to do is but out for a clip and install a clip so far. Don't count them out.

Edit I will have to find some time to do some cardboard mock ups. I was thinking of coming up with the peg .
This may be a case of photographic perspective, where in a two-dimensional photo a surface that's receding looks like it is poking out and vise-versa? Because when I compare my Figure 1 to the picture that Fuzzy posted, to me they look significantly different: the /500 has a raised ridge in from of the footpad while I could swear the /400 has a step-down in front of it (but without a photo taken from the side, that could be an optical illusion).

Are you saying that the /400 footpad has a raised ridge in front of it, and that it is the same distance from the frame screw?
Yes he is.

We compared ours last weekend. When the 500 complete passenger foot rest is removed (not jis the checkered isert) the only difference is a couple holes in the plastic with the speed nuts underneath for a total of 3 screws. Would not take a lot to make small cuts in the plastic and install the speed nuts. I assume this is how others have attached the checkered rugs in the passenger position on 250/400.
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Fuzzy, would you have a few minutes to temporarily transfer one of your brackets to the rear deck to confirm that it fits as shown above?
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more pics. I went on Jeffs thoughts and changed it a bit instead of the long part sticking up I went with the short part. In one of the pics you can see I put a black dot where a hole needs to be drilled to catch on of the clips underneath. I put some decent pressure with my foot and it felt stable with just the 1 back bolt in. I think adding the 2nd bolt will help remove the slight flex. but this is very doable with Jeffs exsisting UFP's. The riders leg position don't interfer either.
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Here you go.

Personallyt I think you should removed the raised piece on the 500 and set the peg bracket down a little lower. Not that I have any intention of buying them as the only passenger ever on my back seat was Mr Dirt and that for less than 1/2 mile at Daytona.
different angle showing definite rais in front.
different angle showing definite rais in front.
UFP in similar location to your picture.  No screw to hold in place.
UFP in similar location to your picture. No screw to hold in place.
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A suggestion for one size fits all.
1. If a 500 remove the passenger raised foot rest.
2. Form a plate that screws into the hole that is common on the passenger foot rest, fits over the raised piece in front of the passenger foot rest and bolts to the rear screw on the rider rug. Make it wide enough to cover the whole area of the passenger rest so that no holes are left showing where the 500 raised rest was removed.
3.Place the drop for the pegs at the appropriate spot. Probably to the rear of the driver's rug.
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Ummmm - I'd like to point out one thing. The idea looks good but not with the end pointing up in the air like that. My sweetie wears cowboy boots and they quite frequently dig into my calf and occasionally interfere when I put my feet down at a stop if her toes are pointed inward. Once the cuff of my pants caught and *that* was an awkward stop!
Anyway - it would appear that the UFP as shown mounted to passenger could be a huge safety problem...
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You guys have my idea wrong. Actually, Dirt has it right but he thinks his idea is different from mine and they are in fact the same. Fuzzy, look at Doug's pictures - that's what I am talking about, exactly that. Doug, the reason you have more clearance isn't because you are using a different end (mine is EXACTLY the same as yours...you're just looking at the right side of the bike and I photographed the left side) but because you have an /LT, which does not have that cruising-position extension. So my request, Fuzzy, is for you to mount your UFP just like in Doug's picture, even if you don't have a long enough screw to actually seat it into the frame hole.

Bubba, if I were to make a bracket specific to the rear passenger, it would not have the part that continues up into the air.
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Calling KenBerger...calling KenBerger...Ken you have a set of those Rivcos mounted to UFP/LTs, right? Could you try out this mod and take your very lovely lady for a ride and see how it works? Maybe even photos?
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ok so my wife came home early and I had her sit and test. she like the pegs in the top most hole. She is tall 5'11" she said the bottom hole was not as comfortable. The part protruding up was not an issue what so ever. She liked putting her toe on the peg and heel on the floor board also, just as a little change up. The clearances with me on the scoot were very good with my feet on the floor boards and on the ground. I like them so much better than what I originally done with my first experiment with the highways pegs I got from turbojay that I am going to order a set of UFP's and mount them for her. The only think I need to do is dril and extra hole for the front screw/bolt.
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old as dirt wrote:
ok so my wife came home early and I had her sit and test. she like the pegs in the top most hole. She is tall 5'11" she said the bottom hole was not as comfortable. The part protruding up was not an issue what so ever. She liked putting her toe on the peg and heel on the floor board also, just as a little change up. The clearances with me on the scoot were very good with my feet on the floor boards and on the ground. I like them so much better than what I originally done with my first experiment with the highways pegs I got from turbojay that I am going to order a set of UFP's and mount them for her. The only think I need to do is dril and extra hole for the front screw/bolt.
Obviously if you want to go that route then what you really want to do is order a set of UFP/XTs for you and use the /LTs in the back. More stretch for you in front, less interference for you in back.
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GonzoB wrote:
mjm50cal wrote:
I think that there is more to consider.
My wife, at a perfect 5' 7 3/8", needed to stretch her legs out. More forward and slightly outward was where I needed to go. A shorter pillion with shorter legs would need to have a closer peg. That is why there is 3 mounting locations for the peg position.
Because I have a Givi 52L with backrest she can easily push off and lift her butt up off the seat. Without the Givi she would have to pull on me to lift her butt off the seat.
To go anymore rearward, would really splay the pillions legs out regardless of size. A tall person really couldn't go straight down with there legs. Also, the further you go back from where I located my pegs, the significantly wider you have to go.
I'm pretty sure that the PPS will fit on all the MP3s. And it is a direct bolt on with the only caveat being the need to remove the never used lock loop.

Mike Nerd emoticon
Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, Mike.

I understand the need for comfort - for stretching the legs, but it's my contention that with your feet forward, your legs don't provide any support for your body. It amazes me that blokes on Harleys ride around with only highway pegs. They must have sore backs.

I had another look at your photos, and I had missed the adjustability, but it would have been better to have the adjustability backwards as well.

Please don't take my comments as a negative. I'm putting in my two-penneth-worth to provide input for development.

I think the work you've done is outstanding.

Gonzo
No negativity taken mate! I originally considered making the mounting plate for the peg diagonal instead of vertical. It is just a matter of where you weld that plate to the tube. You can have it the way you envision it with a relocation of that plate.
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Here ya go Jeff
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Holy smokes, it works! What are your impressions of location and stability? (I suspect the peg would need to be moved to a higher location, but I realize that's more than I asked you to do...)
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I didn't really tighten it down or try sitting on it. (As I said above I have no plans to buy one as I don't carry passengers. Just glad to help for those who do.) I don't think the one bolt is enough to hold it. Note that Dirt has taken the elevated paltform off his 500 and thus what he shows and what I show are exactly the same set up. Also note that in Dirt's pictures you can see the other two bolt holes that hold the elevated foot rest. These will need to be covered to look decent so why not just make it wider and add two holes to use the other available nuts already in place on the 500 and easy to add on the 250/400. I would also bend the stainless at an angle to match the raised piece on the front.

I still say that to be rock solid, lengthen the stainless and bend it around and down to the back screw on the driver's rug. Then on the upper piece you could just widen it to cover the holes and no modification required on 250/ 400.
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Hey Jeff, are you planning to wrap the cornice of the pillion lip with aluminum?
That would be some pretty fancy bending.
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mjm50cal wrote:
Hey Jeff, are you planning to wrap the cornice of the pillion lip with aluminum?
That would be some pretty fancy bending.
If...IF...I do anything with this, it would be to

- widen the base portion to replace the missing aluminum and drill additional holes for more support (at least on the /500 where there are extra screw holes available)
- get rid of the entire forward portion that extends past the peg ear
- sharpen the arc so that the bend closely confirms to the angle where that forward ridge rises up out of the floorpad area
- move the peg ear back a bit, so that a bumper would contact the side of the floorpad tupperware's side
- possibly, eliminate the lower peg holes
- almost certainly, move the bumper's hole to a different position

I hear you and Fuzzy about bending the bracket up and over the lip and maybe down to the screw on the driver's floorboard. Very complicated, very expensive. Remember three years ago when we were debating making the UFPs out of diamondplate the size of the entire /500 floorboard? Apply my answer here as well: $$$$$$$$$

BUT...if using a UFP/LT gets 80% of the job done...or if a UFP with a little modification gets 90% of the job done...then we have to make a cost/benefit decision about coming out with a whole new bracket.
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Here is a rough 5 minute mock up of what I am suggesting. With the pegs folded all of the hardware would be out of the driver''s way. Strong enough to take some weight.
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when I get my new UFP's next week I will mount the old LT ones in the passenger area. Right now it looks like I will make the back hole a little longer and shave the back corners of the LT's so they fit into the tupperware better. Then drill a new hole for a forward screw. From what I can tell with the quick mock up tht I did earlier today I think I can get the bumper to half rest on the outside floor board area. I'll post some pics when I get the new brackets.
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This is what I am thinking of. I am not using the outboard screw hole on the /500 because it interferes with the arc and frankly I don't think it provides much support (the inboard screw hole has more leverage). Three holes in the peg ear, one for a bumper, one peg high for toes-only, one peg low for possible full-footing.

The swoop is much smaller than the UFP. In the UFP, the swoop bolts to the forward angled portion of the floorboard. In the UPP, the swoop follows, snugs up against, and extends just beyond the plastic ridge in front of the passenger footpad area, using that ridge for reinforcing leverage.
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rjeffb. If your are going to go with something like your last post. Why not flatten it out and bend up the part where the peg go's on and mount it reversed of the frt pegs on the driver part where we put our feet when not using the pegs. You could put a couple of holes to adjust the hight of the pegs. Just a thought. Nothing would be mounted on the part where the passenger puts their ft. Hope you can see what I am getting at. Everone is focus on mounting it to the passenger part. That would put the peg at about the same place as fuzzys. Georges
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This would also put the peg at appox the same place as OAD pictures and you could use one of the existing hole to bolt to. Edit. Just reread your post. I think that is what you meant to bolt it to the same part, I guess. Only your is bent down where you bolt the pegs. . Feel free to correct me if I am wrong 8) . George
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After looking some more at your pic. I see what you meant by braceing the upturned part. Good idea. You could then bend the part where the pegs attach up or down. Depending on just where you wanted the passenger feet to go. I would also want the type of peg that I could ajust so if I rolled forward a foot or so, by putting my foot down to soon, it would move their foot and the peg backward from my calf. Could hurt a leg if it was jammed between the blacktop and the peg. Or go down hard
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Old As Dirt has already come up with a peg idea that mounts on the front driver's floorboard area, do a seach. Issues: 1) if it sticks out too far, then it will interfere with the driver's feet on the floorboard, the driver's calves when putting feet down to stop, or both; and 2) if the pegs are inboard (like Old As Dirt's solution) then the passenger has to wrap her legs around the body of the driver to reach the pegs. You don't need pegs to prove this: with you and your passenger onboard, ask your passenger to touch her toes to the body panel above the driver's floorboard. Unless you have a very skinny driver and a very wide passenger, she won't even get close. It is worth noting that several variations on this theme have been tried and none of them have been generally adopted.

After extensive trials and errors, the passenger solution seems to be coalescing around two schools of thoughts. The first, embodied by B24's approach, is to stick with the stock footpads but give them greater ability to hold onto the passenger's feet (for example B24 engineered a ridge to catch the rider's heel). This does not actually relieve the rider's posture but may increase comfort by decreasing the effort the passenger has to constantly exert to stay in place. The other, of which mjm50cal's is the flagship, is to put pegs outboard of the bike but far enough back so as to not interfere with the driver's legs while stopped (the UPP concept falls into this category, with the usual Jeff conceit that installation must take five minutes or less).

I think it's safe to say that every idea that has actually been tried on this forum falls roughly into one of the above three categories. One other idea, which I and others have suggested but which to my knowledge nobody has ever really tried, is attaching stirrups to a strap and having the passenger ride like a horse saddle. Some have suggested a possible danger with that idea, but I still think it merits investigating.
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the stirup idea is IMO not good as I would not want someone to feel trapped or if you were to have an incedent that they stay connect to the scoot.

Jeff I do like the foot print of the UPP triangle mount. Also if you wanted you could add the 3rd screw in the triangle.

On to my original passenger peg mount on the riders floorboard area. This worked and is very comfortable for my wife, the main issue is with the rider when having to put your feet down at a stop, the pass needs to relocate their feet so I can fold their peg back as it hits me in the back of my calf and my legs are a little forward when stopped. This is not ideal, As I have enough experiece to over come those shortfalls it is not something for 95% of the folks. Jeffs new UPP design will provide a great foot position for the passenger and some adjustability for leg lengths. I have a new set of UFP 3's coming so I will proof my old set of UFP's on to the passenger area and test for concepts of the new UPP .

The only thing a 250/400 owner will have to do different than a 500 is to cut a hole and add a screw clip for the 2nd screw. the main screw in the back portion of the UPP is generic between all 3 scoots.
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Hi Jeff.

What about bracing to the swingarm bolt?

Comme ca:

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The swingarm nut could be replaced with a half-nut to make space for the brace.

Gonzo
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But doesn't the swingarm, um, "swing"?

I had actually looked at the swingarm before, there's a great mounting point where the swingarm connects (unfortunately on the /400 it appears to be a bit covered behind bodywork). I abandoned that idea because it violated my five-minute-installation rule.

Gonzo, the problem with your addition is that it adds a bunch of metal and costs that most people will not want. If you are not going to attach to the swingarm, then you've got yet another unused piece of metal hanging down. BUT: for people who would want to actually be able to stand up on their pegs, your idea still has merit; instead of the two bolting together, they would be one contiguous piece, going up and over the UPP and double-bolting to the rear frame screw. The point here is that the UPP, like the UFP, transmits all forces ultimately as a torque to the underlying U-channel which is not very strong. Having a link down to the swingarm means all forces are purely compressive and the peg would be very strong indeed.

UPP objectives: cheap, simple, easily installed with basic tools. Or to put it another way, Pareto Principle: if I can accomplish 80% of the goal with 20% of the effort, that's a winner. IMHO if you want something stronger but are willing to install something more complicated then go with Mike's pegs, which since they truly come right off the frame are as strong as you can get - and have already been design and proven.
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rjeffb wrote:
But doesn't the swingarm, um, "swing"?

....
Yes it does, but the bolt in question that goes through the rubber bushes doesn't twist. The engine assembly is on bearings which twist. The bolt just moves a little bit as the bushes "give". So it's not perfect, but it's good enough for footpegs.

My idea was to make it easy to install by not having to remove the thru bolt from the swingarm. Just loosen it, maybe replace the nut, slip the slotted brackets over the bolt, and tighten it up.

I was trying to have my cake and eat it. I like the position of your pillion pegs, and I don't like the position of Mike's. I like Mike's mounting, however.

In the end, putting in ideas is fun.

Anyway, with the USD so cheap at the moment, the rest of the world can afford more metal!

Gonzo
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Molto Verboso
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OK, so we were looking at the posts last night, trying to come up with what to do. I think what Shannon came up with was a hybrid of everyone's idea. We think he is going to go get some steel tubing (think like the front grill) and make what amounts to Nerf Bars that tuck in under the floorboards. He didn't like that the plastic gas tank didn't have a skid plate, so what is looking at now is a piece of metal that goes under the bike with the Nerf bars welded to it, bolting to the frame in four points (basing off Mike's foot peg solution). The Nerf bars will then have places welded on for the pegs. He was pretty excited about it because he thinks he can make it look like it 'fits' on the bike. Since I'm vertically challenged we have to pay a good bit of attention to how tight the Nerf bars tuck in and how far back the passenger pegs are, because I have to move around on the seat to put my feet down.

Comments, Criticisms????
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Not plug-n-play so it's no substitute for the UPP. Meanwhile:

1. Weight?

2. Lean clearance and (not an issue for Mike because he uses small OD tubing that tucks into an existing detent) ground clearance?

Consider welding an ISO peg anchor rather than just a hole for a screw. Reason: besides then having all sorts of fancy pegs available that won't fit a UFP or Mike's mounts without expensive adapters, there are certain ISO offset pegs that can be rotated up or down or forward and those might be ideal for an under-floorboard rail.
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Piaggio MP3 500
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Molto Verboso
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Don't think our idea could be a mass produced thing, I think it would be a custom fabricated thing. We talked about the weight, but the steel tubing won't weigh too much, and Shannon was going to talk to the Sheet metal shop today about the availability of some kind of perforated steel like the mesh on the front to use for the plate underneath. Don't *think* it would weigh too much.

Thinking the same about the lean angle - bars should tuck in way closer than the muffler. It should also allow the passenger pegs to be a little further back. Part of what we were looking at was where my legs went down, and I would be awfully close with Mike's pegs. I need them more where the UFP's mount. Shannon's big worry is that if they are mounted to the tupperware Goose will sooner or later on a looooong interstate stretch put too much weight on them with potentially bad consequences. As both his girls are on the bike, he wants to avoid that.
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2007 Yamaha Vino 125
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UTC quote
GeorgiaGirl wrote:
Don't think our idea could be a mass produced thing, I think it would be a custom fabricated thing. We talked about the weight, but the steel tubing won't weigh too much, and Shannon was going to talk to the Sheet metal shop today about the availability of some kind of perforated steel like the mesh on the front to use for the plate underneath. Don't *think* it would weigh too much.

Thinking the same about the lean angle - bars should tuck in way closer than the muffler. It should also allow the passenger pegs to be a little further back. Part of what we were looking at was where my legs went down, and I would be awfully close with Mike's pegs. I need them more where the UFP's mount. Shannon's big worry is that if they are mounted to the tupperware Goose will sooner or later on a looooong interstate stretch put too much weight on them with potentially bad consequences. As both his girls are on the bike, he wants to avoid that.
Are you going to have these done by this weekend? 'Cause that would be awesome...
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CubsKing99 wrote:
Are you going to have these done by this weekend? 'Cause that would be awesome...
Don't think so - Shannon is having trouble finding someone who has the right equipment to bend the steel tubing so that it looks like the other bits. He works one of those funky shifts and he is off today and tomorrow, but working 12 hours the next two days, so I don't see how it could get done that fast. Sssshh, don't tell anyone, but if he could get the pipes bent he would probably build it for me in the machine shop at work Wed., but he has to find someone for that first.
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Boy those UFPs are tough
I tried jigsawing my spare left-hand UFP/LT down by getting rid of the portion that extends up the swoop of the floorboard (turning it into a big arc) and shortening the peg ear to only two holes. The question I am trying to answer is if it is possible - whether insane or not - to create a viable rear passenger solution by modifying an existing UFP/XT (some might say that sawing up a perfectly good /XT is a "crime against nature," but inquiring minds want to know).

I got halfway through the peg ear half-circle when my oiled blade stopped cutting; I've now got some extra-fine carbide blades on order. That 304 stainless is some tough sh*t!
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Re: Boy those UFPs are tough
rjeffb wrote:
I tried jigsawing my spare left-hand UFP/LT down by getting rid of the portion that extends up the swoop of the floorboard (turning it into a big arc) and shortening the peg ear to only two holes. The question I am trying to answer is if it is possible - whether insane or not - to create a viable rear passenger solution by modifying an existing UFP/XT (some might say that sawing up a perfectly good /XT is a "crime against nature," but inquiring minds want to know).

I got halfway through the peg ear half-circle when my oiled blade stopped cutting; I've now got some extra-fine carbide blades on order. That 304 stainless is some tough sh*t!
4" grinder with a cut-off disc.

I hope your not cutting up my new set
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Re: Boy those UFPs are tough
>I hope your not cutting up my new set

Not to worry Doug, I filled in the cut with some liquid steel and sanded it down. You'll hardly notice it. Razz emoticon
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UTC quote
Re: Boy those UFPs are tough
rjeffb wrote:
>I hope your not cutting up my new set

Not to worry Doug, I filled in the cut with some liquid steel and sanded it down. You'll hardly notice it. Razz emoticon
as long as they polish up to a good luster.
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Thought I'd forgotten about this, eh? Well, there's not much I can do until the new saw blades (and footpegs) arrive, but this should give everyone a pretty good idea of what I am trying to do.

I attempted to drill a new hole in the top right corner of the peg ear for a bumper. I could not even get a pilot hole to start with two different bits. Definitely need bench tools to work this stuff.

Meanwhile design work on a UPP continues. It is very difficult because it involves multiple bends in multiple axes to get the bumper to line up. In a week or two I should have it to the point of requesting a quote.

P.S. OAD your UFP/XTs should be edit were delivered today.
I managed to saw from the top edge to the bottom peg hole before my jigsaw blade gave out.
I managed to saw from the top edge to the bottom peg hole before my jigsaw blade gave out.
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'Sophia' - Demon Black MP3 500
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UTC quote
Tie UPP and UFP together?
Is there a possibility of tying in the UPP to the UFP? With the one solid mount point already existing on the passenger floorboard, perhaps you could run a bracket up to the UFP. That may lock them in, giving enough support. Plus, you have multiple mount points along the length of the bracket. Key issue would be aesthetic - keeping it from looking like a Beverly Hillbillies add-on.
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