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Maynard - possibly tied into the disclaimer that was under the picture (I am not kidding) "photograph may not represent actual product"?

Bubba - I'm checking it out.

All - swallowed my pride and went back to my jobber and asked him to try to get a better price.
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If this comes through, I'm a customer.
Love the pegs I have, and IMO the passenger needs them even more!
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Death of an Idea
So, I finally had both the time, the opportunity, and the weather to eyeball Gonzo's concept and it is a no-go, at least on the KISS principle. What I did was this:

1. I put the footpad riser back on to return the scooter to original passenger foot condition.

2. I removed the access panels from both sides of the scooter.

3. I ran a 1" diameter round pole through the access panel and took measurements.

Why round when we're talking about square tubing? Why 1" when it looks like I will have to use 1.25" to accomodate the available offset pegs? In both instances, I was going for worse-case: 1" is going to have more clearance inside the engine compartment than 1", and because the bottom forward corner of the access opening is radiused, a round pole will have more clearance than a square tube. If I can't get a 1" round pole to fit I definitely cannot get a 1.25" square tube to fit.

And, it doesn't.

Oh, it passes through, although within half an inch of the cylinder head. But for it to clear the head, the pole has to be pushed as far forward as it can. A larger square tube would not be able to use the forward-most centimeter of the access area (because of the arc) and would be just about touching the cylinder head.

What's worse, this puts the whole thing about three centimeters forward of the screw hole in the footpad riser. Remember, the idea is to use the existing screw hole to attach the tube to, hopefully by running a screw vertically right through the tube and into the hole, but at worse using a clamp along the side of the tube. Three centimeters is too far: it's far enough that if the passenger put their weight on just one side, they'd create a lever that could pry the screw out or fail to keep the tubing pressed down on the opposite side.

Now, in Gonzo's photos (page 3 of this thread), it "appears" (photos can be deceiving due to parallex) that he has gobs of clearance and the screw hole, while still aft of the tubing, is only a centimeter or so behind the tube. Perhaps this is an artifact of the photographs, but...the engine is mounted on the swingarm, correct? So that clearance is variable...another reason I would be nervous using it unless I could get the scooter up on a lift and see what the range of motion is.

There are certainly ways around this, such as welding or bolting the pass-through tube to the frame or running long toggle bolts down into the U-channel deep under the floorboard. But it's not KISS, so I'm not going to pursue this approach. I'm back to the UPP and hopefully a compromise on pricing.
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Re: Death of an Idea
rjeffb wrote:
So, I finally had both the time, the opportunity, and the weather to eyeball Gonzo's concept and it is a no-go, at least on the KISS principle.
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Yep, dead as a doornail.

The footpeg is in *exactly* the right position for type of pillion passenger I have (not planning on changing that anytime soon), and her feet are wide enough out to clear my calves when I've got my feet down.

Using the 20mm square (3/4") tube, I had to turn it at 45deg to put the peg on the right angle when folded, so it reduced the clearance on the rocker cover. It still has some 2mm clearance. Fortunately, I have air suspension, so I can bottom the shocks to check the clearance.

I haven't modified the inspection covers yet, because I haven't decided how I will do it.

KISS?
- Well, it's not adjustable, and it may not be in the right position for anyone else. So I guess that's a fail.
- Easy to make? Well the difficult bit was making the clevises. I only used that method 'cos I wanted to use my gen-u-wine HD pegs (I'm a tight-arse). Had I started from scratch, I'd have welded a nut into the end of the tube and bought some bolt-on pegs. So it would have been fairly easy, but still wouldn't have met the adjustable requirement. So that's probably a fail too.
- Strong enough? It's OK. It's much stronger that the UFPs, but I'd still think twice about jumping on the end of the peg. Actually what happens when you do that is the bike overbalances. Is that a fail? Dunno.

Sooooo... It's not production quality, but it works for me. What I was really hoping for was that Jeff would make a good one, then I'd buy it, saving me the trouble. Of course, there's nothing that motivates me like someone saying that one of my ideas WOULDN'T WORK.

Gonzo
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Always glad to provide motivation, Gonzo

The dual screw strap supporting the bar is ugly but I must admit very functional, I was way too focused on managing with just the single forward screw. Since you've gone that far already: you're not relying on a pass-through screw nor the flat end of a square bar, so you've got an inherently unstable setup that is sensitive to off-axis torques. Why not just go ahead and make it a 1.25" round tube and hang a clamp-on off the end? Seems like it would be no more unstable than what you have right now. Of course any direction other than straight down might be problematic, as without a pass-through and a flat edge it seems the whole thing would be unstable if any appreciable torque was applied.

I presume you've already checked cylinder head clearance throughout the range of motion of the swingarm?

P.S. I have heard nothing from the shop at all about a revised UPP quote.

P.P.S. Mightily impressed, as always.
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UGLY??? I'll have you know I painted those straps 'specially so they'd look good!

The reason I used the 2-screw bracket was to give it some lateral stability. Otherwise I would have had to use a much more solid connection to the tube.

1.25" tube won't fit. The shot of the cyl head is in the fully compressed position (the closest it gets to the bar). 1" will fit, 1.25" won't.

Why did I use 20 square and 20x3 flat bar? Well, I had some left over from the suspension project! Did I mention tight-arse?

Anyway, it's not too bad, but I think it would be better with a strap UNDER the tube going back to the first screw, as well as the one OVER it. Sort of like a stirrup. That way there's be no twisting. Think of it as an iterative process. That's the main reason I haven't cut the inspection panels yet.

I'm not coming up with ideas any more - it creates work for me!

Gonzo
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eMachineShop
Okay, I am in the process of placing a prototype order with a different shop - "emachineshop.com," which our very own Torqueboy turned me onto.

The deal with them is you have to design the part, in 3D, using their proprietary software (which I had to learn but it was not difficult compared to Pro/E or AutoCad). And of course, there's no room for tweaks since everything is done over the Internet; you design the part, fill out your credit card info, click send, and a few weeks later you get the part in the mail. No human to tell "I need to you bend this back a little."

The really strange thing is: they don't offer bead blasting, and their software's wizard says that 304 stainless cannot be powder-coated. From multiple experiences of members here with UFPs, we know that is simply not the case. So I have an e-mail in to them about that.

Bottom line: $208 shipped (no finish) for the prototype instead of $350 (with bead finish) from the shop that I have given so much business to in the past.
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You can get a bead blaster fer cheap from Harbor Freight.
Pity you had to go this route... I think the folks you were dealing with saw a cash cow in the making...
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It's too bad they didn't have all the options available to you, but I'm glad you can get them prototyped for a more reasonable price.
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Prototype ordered!
Boy, am I nervous about ordering a prototype from people behind an unseen wall. We'll see how it goes. If all goes well then I will either order a full shipment from them and arrange for bead-blasting or powder coating (they responded that they have not had good adhesion on 304...that sure seems to be different than our members' experiences), or go back to the original shop for the full order. Then maybe I'll sell my prototype to OAD - he doesn't seem to mind bare metal parts, as I recall... Razz emoticon
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I could test the prototype for you. After all my wife and I do have a 3000 mile ride scheduled for late August. We'll be riding two up the whole time. That should put the brackets through their paces.
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BubbaJon wrote:
You can get a bead blaster fer cheap from Harbor Freight.
You can get a powder coat machine from there, too. It's even on sale this month, though maybe that coupon's just for Inside Track members...
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Hmm, yes, I see...$5 for the powder coat material, $65 for the sprayer, and $500 for the oven...I'm planning on selling HOW many of these UPPs? Wha? emoticon
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rjeffb wrote:
Hmm, yes, I see...$5 for the powder coat material, $65 for the sprayer, and $500 for the oven...I'm planning on selling HOW many of these UPPs? Wha? emoticon
Pssssht! You can use a gas grill or any old heat source - doesn't have to be a fancy commercial oven.
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Now that I've ordered them, I can't wait to get my UPP prototypes. I'm left with just PaintShop in the meantime...
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Those pegs look kick-ass! Who makes 'em... prolly more'n I wanna pay....
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BubbaJon wrote:
Those pegs look kick-ass! Who makes 'em... prolly more'n I wanna pay....
they are good for keeping your feet on the pegs, thats why they are road racing style pegs. Not comfortable for distance riding.
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Rizoma in Spain. They're actually quite reasonable, $48 from cjmoto.com. Apparently the end is a rubber pad that can be replaced if damaged by scraping. They even come in black powder coat.

But they don't fold (at least not by themselves) and neither CJ Moto nor Rizoma's home page says what is on the other end, just that they only work with the bike-specific Rizoma mount.
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BubbaJon wrote:
rjeffb wrote:
Hmm, yes, I see...$5 for the powder coat material, $65 for the sprayer, and $500 for the oven...I'm planning on selling HOW many of these UPPs? Wha? emoticon
Pssssht! You can use a gas grill or any old heat source - doesn't have to be a fancy commercial oven.
Hmm... I have a gas grill that I replaced with a new one that'd be perfect for this...
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Re: Death of an Idea
GonzoB wrote:
rjeffb wrote:
So, I finally had both the time, the opportunity, and the weather to eyeball Gonzo's concept and it is a no-go, at least on the KISS principle.
................................

Yep, dead as a doornail.

........................................

Sooooo... It's not production quality, but it works for me. What I was really hoping for was that Jeff would make a good one, then I'd buy it, saving me the trouble. Of course, there's nothing that motivates me like someone saying that one of my ideas WOULDN'T WORK.

Gonzo
Nice Gonzo. This fleshes out my thought on best approach using the through tube, best way I've seen on this thread to accomplish the stated objective. For me, I'd make the same 3/16 aluminum plate in the shape of the rug like I did for the current pillion footrest we use, and then weld on braces to attach to the through tube with capscrews. If I had the time, that is. Functional artistry in metal is not that hard to pull off.

Butt the KISS approach rjb is following is likely best way to get a solution into use by many, so worth following. The UFPs I use, like many of us here, are testament to that!
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The UPP looks good, Jeff.

Can I ask why the edge of the UPP is not parallel to the plastic base of the pillion footplate? It looks a bit out-of-place

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B24, My missus likes the footpegs, especially the ability to push on them during braking. However, they don't look all that good (the footpegs, that is)

In the long run I think your comment is probably the right one. If Jeff is successful with the UPP I'll probably get a pair, and, if they're not stiff enough, I'll connect them as you suggest.

Gonzo
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My next pegs.
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~.
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GonzoB wrote:
The UPP looks good, Jeff.

Can I ask why the edge of the UPP is not parallel to the plastic base of the pillion footplate? It looks a bit out-of-place

Gonzo
It does indeed look a little odd. As every owner of a /250/300/400 knows, the leading edge of their passenger footpad area is perpendicular to neither the scooter centerline nor its outside contour (this is true of a /500 as well, but you have to remove the footpad riser to see it). I considered shaping the UPP to follow the contours of the footpad, and I may yet decide to do that in the final product. However, I am familiar enough with machine shops to know that the cheapest solution is the one that sticks to perpendicular cuts and perpendicular bends: it simplifies manufacturing and minimizes material use.
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rjeffb wrote:
GonzoB wrote:
The UPP looks good, Jeff.

Can I ask why the edge of the UPP is not parallel to the plastic base of the pillion footplate? It looks a bit out-of-place

Gonzo
It does indeed look a little odd. As every owner of a /250/300/400 knows, the leading edge of their passenger footpad area is perpendicular to neither the scooter centerline nor its outside contour (this is true of a /500 as well, but you have to remove the footpad riser to see it). I considered shaping the UPP to follow the contours of the footpad, and I may yet decide to do that in the final product. However, I am familiar enough with machine shops to know that the cheapest solution is the one that sticks to perpendicular cuts and perpendicular bends: it simplifies manufacturing and minimizes material use.
rjb, your machine shop is going to have the flat pattern plates cut with a laser, or at least a waterjet, and can make virtually any pattern you want straight from a DXF, right? Why not fully mimic the rug as the base portion of the UFP, holes included, so the existing rug is just replaced with the UFP? That would give it a super finished look.
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BubbaJon wrote:
rjeffb wrote:
Hmm, yes, I see...$5 for the powder coat material, $65 for the sprayer, and $500 for the oven...I'm planning on selling HOW many of these UPPs? Wha? emoticon
Pssssht! You can use a gas grill or any old heat source - doesn't have to be a fancy commercial oven.
That's a great idea Jon, for small runs a regular propane Weber would be just the ticket with hot dogs to follow. kudos!

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BravoTwoFour wrote:
rjeffb wrote:
GonzoB wrote:
The UPP looks good, Jeff.

Can I ask why the edge of the UPP is not parallel to the plastic base of the pillion footplate? It looks a bit out-of-place

Gonzo
It does indeed look a little odd. As every owner of a /250/300/400 knows, the leading edge of their passenger footpad area is perpendicular to neither the scooter centerline nor its outside contour (this is true of a /500 as well, but you have to remove the footpad riser to see it). I considered shaping the UPP to follow the contours of the footpad, and I may yet decide to do that in the final product. However, I am familiar enough with machine shops to know that the cheapest solution is the one that sticks to perpendicular cuts and perpendicular bends: it simplifies manufacturing and minimizes material use.
rjb, your machine shop is going to have the flat pattern plates cut with a laser, or at least a waterjet, and can make virtually any pattern you want straight from a DXF, right? Why not fully mimic the rug as the base portion of the UFP, holes included, so the existing rug is just replaced with the UFP? That would give it a super finished look.
Another great idea, you guys are really on a roll with this thing. What about it Jeff, would the small amount of extra material make that much difference in cost?

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Larry and B24,

What you're saying doesn't make sense to me, and when people I respect say things that don't make sense, I figure they know something I don't.

All three of us own /500s, and on the /500 there is no "rug." (Remember I am mounting not to the /500-specific passenger footpad riser but to the underlying footpad in order to make the mount the same across models and to access the frame-mounted well nut).

Since there is no rug on a /500 the question makes no sense - on a /500. Arer you saying that the /250/300/400 DO have a passenger rug? If so, I would very much like to know its thickness, mounting points, distance from and orientation ralative to the lip in front of the footpad, and shape and dimensions (or even better, a 1:1 scan).

Thanks!
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Jeff, I think they are asking if the flat surface plate can be etched to look like diamond plate similar to the front floor panel design.
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>Jeff, I think they are asking if the flat surface plate can be etched to look like diamond plate similar to the front floor panel design.

Hmm, hopefully not, because that's not practical as explained way back inthe very first UFP thread from years ago.

But whether it was or was not their point, it is still useful information to know if the 400 has a rubber rug over the passenger footpad. A UPP made to those same dimensions would not only look better (per Gonzo's and I suspect B24's points), but could conceivably have attachment points to match whatever is under that rug and, since as Fuzzy has shown that the footpad hidden under the /500 riser is the same as the other models, would still fit the /500 as well.

Also, if there IS a rubber rug over the /250/400 footpad, that changes the point at which the UPP contacts the lip at the forward edge - and that contact point is critical to the UPP's design. Without knowing more, I cannot say for sure that the slots in the UPP allow the bracket to be pushed far enough forward to make full contact with that lip when sitting on top of a rubber mat. This means that either the UPP design may need some tweaking, or (unlike the UFP) it may be necessary to remove the rear mats before installing a UPP on anything other than a /500.

In the pix that Fuzzy posted (page 1 of this thread), all I see is bare plastic with one hole. Fuzzy, I presume that was after you pulled off a rubber mat? Does that mat have a plug that goes into that one hole shown? Are there any other connections? Is that exactly the same hole that secures the /500 pad to the frame?

>would the small amount of extra material make that much difference in cost?

It depends. With emachineshop, I submit a single 3D drawing containing both left and right brackets. There's no human to figure out "oh, these need to be cut like this to minimize material." So with everything at a 90 degree angle, I just line up one over the other with a minimim (0.03" per their instructions) gap. If there are curves involved, then that may or may not be possible; try lining up a pair of shoes to minimize the gap between them and you'll likely find that you've now made the overall length of the pair longer - but it depends on where the curves are.

But I'm willing to give it a try if I knew the actual shape!
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@old_as_dirt avatar
2007 GTS
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22418
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
UTC quote
the 250/400 is the same as removing the 500 additional pass floor piece. just like in all the pics that have been posted . The only diff for the 250/400 folks is they will have to add the 2nd bolt speed nut. to do so they will have to cut the plastic a bit to slide it in to position.

After re reading Jeffs post there is no rubber rug on the 250/400 and the single bolt is exactly the same one used in the 500.

B@$ and ray are refering only to their 500's and thinking your designing just a pass peg only replacing the triangle diamond aluminum piece , which is not the case fellas. You will need to remove the pass floor board piece on the 500.
@bravotwofour avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
'09 Mp3-500 - Gone Now
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2065
Location: Happy Valley, Oregon
 
Ossessionato
@bravotwofour avatar
'09 Mp3-500 - Gone Now
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2065
Location: Happy Valley, Oregon
UTC quote
Hmm. I wouldn't have expected my comment to confusing, but in light of the fact I think only in context of the 500 on such subjects, I can see where that might occur.

"Rug" to me is the contoured-to-fit diamond embossed aluminum plate delivered with the 500 as a passenger footrest. My thought was that the UFP design simply match this in silhouette where it attaches to the footboard, no-brainer if laser cutting the flat pattern in SS. Obviously correct for a 500, probably not so for the other planforms (250/400).

So again, for a UFP - U being universal in this case - some "one size fits all" approach does, of course, make sense.
OP
@rjeffb avatar
UTC

Bracketmeister
Bracketmeister Emeritus (retired)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2519
Location: New Jersey
 
Bracketmeister
@rjeffb avatar
Bracketmeister Emeritus (retired)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2519
Location: New Jersey
UTC quote
OAD, thanks for the clarification. Right, so the footpad riser on the /500 gets removed because doing so
- lowers the peg position into a more ideal location
- creates a mounting situation essentially identical between the /500 and the other models
- provides access to the frame screw hole

and so there will be no place to put the original passenger diamondplate - or a footpeg bracket of the same shape (I have already confirmed that the OEM diamondplate does not fit the underlying footpad). But to Gonzo's and Larry's points, it may still be practical (certainly possible but $$$) to design the UPP to follow the footpad contours for a more attractive solution.

So /400 owners have a hole in their footpad and nothing soft and non-slippery for passengers to put their feet on? That's really begging for a footpeg solution!
Fuzzy's photo showing just slippery plastic and a thru hole that accesses the frame nut underneath.
Fuzzy's photo showing just slippery plastic and a thru hole that accesses the frame nut underneath.
⚠️ Last edited by rjeffb on UTC; edited 1 time
@bubbajon avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
RIP: MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5288
Location: Austin, TX
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@bubbajon avatar
RIP: MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5288
Location: Austin, TX
UTC quote
larrylarry75 wrote:
BubbaJon wrote:
rjeffb wrote:
Hmm, yes, I see...$5 for the powder coat material, $65 for the sprayer, and $500 for the oven...I'm planning on selling HOW many of these UPPs? Wha? emoticon
Pssssht! You can use a gas grill or any old heat source - doesn't have to be a fancy commercial oven.
That's a great idea Jon, for small runs a regular propane Weber would be just the ticket with hot dogs to follow. kudos!

LL75 Razz emoticon
LOL - I shoulda mentioned you might wanna have a junker to do it in. Most grills get that nice greasy patina inside and can stuff absorb nasty stuff. Wouldn't want anyone poisoned. I always see Weber type grills for sale on CL for cheep. Even charcoal can attain curing temps. Gas is nice because some processes require a slow/low temp cure then you follow up with a high/fast blast. I made one once by getting the regulator and an ok burner off a junk gas grill, a 20gal stainless trash can ($15 on sale). Mounted it on the inside-side of the can and used a couple of 12" ceramic tiles for the "grill" and to put parts on. Total cost was well under $20 since I already had the propane tank. Also - make sure the stuff you're puttin in doesn't like to ignite...

Back in the day fridges used to be metal. Those make AWESOME smokers. Make your heat/smoke source in the bottom, cut slots in the top and use metal louvered vents to make an adjustable flue....

When I was a poor young GI I learned to make-do with all sorts of things...
@larrylarry75 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
2009 MP3-500 aka Red Dog 2007 Vespa 250ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2111
Location: Southern Oregon Coast
 
Ossessionato
@larrylarry75 avatar
2009 MP3-500 aka Red Dog 2007 Vespa 250ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2111
Location: Southern Oregon Coast
UTC quote
What, no rug on your's? !! You must have one of the stripped down models! ROFL emoticon

I was just thinking if you're going to the trouble of making a plate why not have it cover the entire area it sits on rather than leaving part of it open? For one thing I think a full coverage plate would look more like it was part of the MP3's design and not a stick-on after market farkle. For another if you leave it open it will likely become a collection point for dirt. (Not OAD, the real stuff)

And no, sorry Jeff but I haven't read all of your posts on this project mainly because I don't carry passengers. Maybe one could run along behind me and hold onto the trailer hitch...? Wha? emoticon

Your bracket's a cool idea anyway; bet you sell the heck out of 'em.

LL75 Razz emoticon
Foot peg bracket with larger plate. Hey, I did it with Paint, woddayawant, a picture or a 1000 words?
Foot peg bracket with larger plate. Hey, I did it with Paint, woddayawant, a picture or a 1000 words?
OP
@rjeffb avatar
UTC

Bracketmeister
Bracketmeister Emeritus (retired)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2519
Location: New Jersey
 
Bracketmeister
@rjeffb avatar
Bracketmeister Emeritus (retired)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2519
Location: New Jersey
UTC quote
A European UFP purchaser sent me pictures of a passenger peg solution he has done kind of similar to Gonzo's idea, but more secure. His solution will not help passengers with long legs but would be ideal for passengers who are short, especially for kids. This is not that "footpad riser" idea that was posted a few years ago but genuine footpegs. I have asked him to please post a new thread with his very clever mod. It's not completely KISS as there is some welding involved, but much simpler than mjm50's mod.
UTC

Enthusiast
Piaggio MP3 500
Joined: UTC
Posts: 53
Location: Lake Forest, cailifornia
 
Enthusiast
Piaggio MP3 500
Joined: UTC
Posts: 53
Location: Lake Forest, cailifornia
UTC quote
Well count me in on buying a pair of UPP's when there ready. I've only logged about 2,000 miles so far so I won't be putting the Wife on the back for awhile, but I really want to be able to have her ride with me when I'm ready. The problem is she's only 4' 8" so right now her feet don't even reach the footpads (legs just won't bend around the access panels far enough to reach).
 
You guys are great! Thanks to you all and the time and effort you spend coming up with suggestions and modifications my 86 mile ride is almost pure bliss. I just recently got a set of the UFP's and I love them. They make all the difference in the world in my long commute. I almost hate to have to fold the pegs up when I've reached my exit. Having my feet on the floor boards now feels like I'm kissing my knees .The only problem I have left is a sore butt, which hopefully will be solved when the AirHawk I ordered arrives this Friday (got the Comfort Gel Pad, seem to make worse, returned it). If not then I'm planning in December to take a trip up North to get the a Russell Day Long Saddle.
UTC

Addicted
2007 MP3 250(retired) C650GT
Joined: UTC
Posts: 708
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
 
Addicted
2007 MP3 250(retired) C650GT
Joined: UTC
Posts: 708
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
UTC quote
Riffraft wrote:
I just recently got a set of the UFP's and I love them. They make all the difference in the world in my long commute. I almost hate to have to fold the pegs up when I've reached my exit. Having my feet on the floor boards now feels like I'm kissing my knees .
Why fold them up. I did that for the first week or so. Mine haven't been up for the last two months. My feet have either been on the pegs or on the ground. Can't stand to fold my legs up again.
UTC

Enthusiast
Piaggio MP3 500
Joined: UTC
Posts: 53
Location: Lake Forest, cailifornia
 
Enthusiast
Piaggio MP3 500
Joined: UTC
Posts: 53
Location: Lake Forest, cailifornia
UTC quote
I thought that if i'm leaning into a nice long curve the foot pegs would scrape. I assumed that to be the case since the pegs are lower and stick out from the side of the bike.
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