Modern Vespa

Sorry, no updates. Spoke to Al and he's trying to get to my crank this week. I need to order some gaskets and seals. After talking to Al, I probably will do some intake porting in the cases when i get it apart. I'm just confirming with him the mods to do. I don't feel like shipping my airbox and case half back and forth to CA for some quick porting. Wonder if anyone here has any good before and after pics of some mild rotary intake mods. I did find some stuff on the German scooter forum.

What I should do is pull and split the motor and order any worn parts. I hate to have the motor in pieces waiting for stuff to show though.

Chuck

I ran across these photos online. Are P200 intakes really this screwy? Is the hole drilled at the angle done on the P200 version and not the smaller motor? Don't they share the same casting?

For some reason I don't remember seeing this extra machining in my intake. Maybe I just missed it.





Chuck

No, that's a modification. The P200 intake is the same style as the other P-series

Nope, that is from the factory! They did it to the smaller motors too, much cheeper to add a drilling step than to change the casting to give a later intake port closing.

Snap, looking at rebuild pics you're right. I could swear mine looks less... cylindrical than that, though. Seems a bit more integrated with the original opening. Maybe I'm nuts - I'll take some pics from the same angles as these next time I have my carb off if there's anything different to show.

Just wanted to write a quick update. By far the biggest issue I have had has been carb setup. I could not get the Vortex to have a clean transition from the idle to the main circuit. On the bike originally, you could just roll on the throttle coming out of a turn and it would pull cleanly even at 1/4 throttle.

I went ahead and spent some time reading the Weber tuning manual. The Dellorto SI shares alot of things with the Weber. Same idle circuit. Same transition circuit, mixer designs etc. Definitely a good read for someone who has only messed with carbs with needles.

I spent one morning swapping carb jets around between my stock 24 and the Vortex. I tried different AC's, mixers and mains. It all came down to the main jet. The main jet in the SI carb is not top end only. It seems to effect the entire main jet circuit (1/4-full throttle). The jet in the carb was huge. Something like a 180. I grabbed an old jet and drilled it out to make a 140. That made all the difference in the world. The bike would now pull part throttle.

I've not put about 100 miles on it w/o any carb adjustments. It's running nice. I pulled the plug and overall it's on the rich side. Kinda a chocolate brown. Normally I'd like to see it lighter but I'll stick with this until I can do a plug chop.

My crank is right around the corner. The next installments will be splitting the cases to put in a new crank. Degreeing the intake and porting the intake area of the cases to match the airbox and cleanup the nasty factory drilling. Lotsa pictures.

Chuck

Great gauge Chuck,

Did you get the crank yet?

Bump?

Awesome thread Chuck...

Wish you'd been doing this 2 years ago when I (the guy from Singapore) was buggering about trying to get my setup sorted...

I ended up going long stroke, reed valve, and 226 H-Bomb... all of these things didn't make the Pinasco a happy beast at all...

So last year I bought a Polini kit... and had it ported by Harry Barlow in the UK... I got around to fitting it last week (same issues with time for kids etc) and it's a beast... took of the exhaust... and frankly I don't miss it...

I'd wager that you'd do pretty well with a stock exhaust on your setup... or perhaps a Sito +...

I was getting a choppy bottom end with the hbomb on... which is completely gone now (granted I chanded the kit also!)...

But heck, worth a go...

Don't get me wrong, the 226 stuff is awesome... just never seemed happy unless it was doing fast scootering...


Oh and about your wobbling... you sure the motor mounts aren't shot?

Hi James(?)

Funny. I read all your posts over on StellaSpeed trying to get insight into what I was doing. My bike has been running pretty good. I had it jetted way lean for awhile trying to get the low to main stack transition in the carb to work right. I had it running great around town till I realized it was so lean that it wouldn't run over 60mph w/o detonating and falling on its face. It literally did not have enough fuel to make enough power to run over 60.

I went back and re-drilled the main out to the equivalent of a 160 and went back to the 50/120 idle. Got a bit of a hiccup in the transition but it pulls strong in 4th. Actually the top speed is currently limited by the bad handling. Over 70mph and the scoot feels like it wants to go into a tank slapper. I've had it to 73 on a GPS and mid 70's on the speedo which should translate to about 80 or so. Speedo is about 5-7mph low.

I have a set of Claus mounts and a rear shock mount sitting in my box. I also picked up a set of Carbone Sport shocks from Scooter Mercato. I have collected all the parts for my rebuild, just waiting on the crank. Time to light a fire under Al. The plan is to install Al's crank and port the cases. While I'm in there it will get a new cross, seals, crank bearings etc.

I like the 226 pipe but it is noisy. I still have a Sito+ sitting around so I might give it a try once the new crank goes in.

Glad to see Harry's stuff is working for you. I met him when he lived in the states and was porting Suzuki heads for the dragbikes at Star racing. He built one of my RS125 motors and a YSR 50 motor. I spent alot of time with him and his buddies on the dyno when he was tuning RZ350 motors. He used to swear me to secrecy when I saw the inside of his RD or RZ cylinders and the results he was getting on the dyno. He built some pretty strong Yamaha motors. At the time he would tell me stories about drag racing Lambrettas. I wasn't into scooters at all at the time and I thought it was the dumbest thing I ever heard of. Well times change.

Oh well, can't wait to post more installments of my tuning escapades. I promise lotsa pictures and info.

Chuck

Last edited by chuckactor on Sun, 11 Dec 2011 14:02:41 +0000; edited 1 time

If you decide to go away from the 226, I'll buy it off ya

Yup... James_on stellaspeed...

Shit, well you've done a good deal better with it than I ever did...

Glad to hear it's working out...

I had a crank with Al for so long that I'd all but forgotten about it... But being the good guy he is, he got in touch and now I've got a spare reedvalce meceur 60mm crank...

Small world... Barlow does sound like quite a character from speaking to him on the phone...

Will be watching this thread...

Cheers

Guess what I'll be doing over the holidays?

Al just sent a picture of my crank. He is making my up a crank puller tool to help the install.



Chuck

That is beautiful.

Time to get moving on the project. The bike ran great on the 85 mile mods and rockers ride and then ran like crap the next day. Still thinking it's the seals. Anyway, time to find out for sure. I just got a care package from Hotrod Al. http://www.hotrodscooters.com/

Here is a picture of my new crank and the install tool that he made up for me. The crank has a Japanese rod and bearings and has been cut and flowed.



The plan is to upgrade the suspension with a set of Carbone Sport shocks from Scooter Mercato and Clauss shock mounts and swing arm bushings.

The motor will get the HRS crank, new bearings, seals and a mild bit of porting work to match up the rotary inlet area to the airbox. Stay tuned..

Chuck

Last edited by chuckactor on Fri, 24 Feb 2012 12:23:53 +0000; edited 1 time

You certainly won't regret the Clauss bushes. I had them in my PX200, along with Bitubo shocks, and the scooter handled beautifully. Felt like it was running on rails, the wheels exactly where I wanted them.

Wish my GTS250 rode as well!

Mike

Match the transfer port while you're in there.

I runs a lot of HRS cranks. hands down, really nice. so much better than Worb5!

looks like a great build.

Alright.. after starring at my box of parts I decided to get to work. With my trusty Nikon D60 in hand (... actually my wife's Nikon, gotta watch the grease), I started tearing the bike down. The plan was to do a step by step photo laden article of the process. At least that was the plan till I realized the camera was mistakenly set to manual and all the pictures up to this one were trash...



Luckily this has been covered a million times on a number of sites including:

http://vespamaintenance.com/engine/teardown/index.html

Or the great engine info Dave has posted on the the ScooterMercato website:

http://www.scootermercato.com/Garage/Tech-Tips/Engine-Disassembly

I got the motor out and disassembled the engine and cleaned the cases with Gunk engine cleaner.

No big surprises. Found out early P200's don't have a plastic oil slinger. Found out my swingarm bushings were shot. The picture doesn't show it well but the center tube is no longer centered in the bushing.



And the shift cross was pretty worn out.



I must say, getting the swing-arm bushings out of the case was super easy. I used the method of taking a small screw driver and prying between the rubber and the case. When you create a gap you squirt in some WD-40. Continue to do this in about 5-6 places around the circumference. I then used a long socket extension to rock the bushing side to side as I pried up on the rubber with a screwdriver. I got them both out in probably 5 minutes.



The goal of the tear down was to replace the crank seals and install a new HRS crank and cleanup the intake.

Here are a couple shots of the intake. I have the mismatch between the airbox and the cases:





And I want to blend in the additional hole the factory drills into the cases to smooth things out. Nothing big really. It will probably take about 10min with a carbide bit in the Dremel to clean things up nicely.



Here's a couple side by side shots of the stock crank I pulled out and the one Al sent me for the build. You can see he even stuffed the hole in the hollow big end pin. Not sure if he did it for crankcase compression or he's using it to help balance the crank.





Chuck

Last edited by chuckactor on Fri, 24 Feb 2012 12:24:38 +0000; edited 2 times

The new bushings are installed. http://www.claussstudios.com/ or http://stores.ebay.com/CSM-Restoration-Parts



Now time to fix the mismatch in the boost port. I thought I was close on the left side. Turns out I was at the gasket surface but I sure wasn't at the spigot opening. I am going to fill the left side in with epoxy and grind it out to match while I'm at it.



I used JB weld to fill the area on the side of the port. I made a dam out of pieces of playing card that I glued to the case with some liquid nails adhesive and some painters tape.



I then filled it in and let it dry.



When it was dry I peeled the cards off and used a razor blade to scrape the excess paper and glue off the case surface.





Now with the cylinder back on you can see the filled area that needs to be removed.



I used a scribe to mark the surface to cut away.



Now it's time to take the Dremel tool to the cases.

Chuck

Last edited by chuckactor on Fri, 24 Feb 2012 12:26:16 +0000; edited 2 times

I went ahead and did the porting work today. I used a Dremel tool and a couple different carbide cutters. One was flame shaped and the other was a teardrop. I started with the boost port first. it went pretty well. Key is to keep taking the cylinder on and off to check your work. Make sure you keep moving the cutter back and forth so as not to dig it into the surface. especially near the soft epoxy. You can lube the cutter with WD40 to help keep it from building up chips. If the cutter gets aluminum stuck to it, it will chatter and not cut smooth.



Here's a shot with the cylinder back on. The match is alot better than before...



Next I turned to the intake. The idea was to smooth out the area where the factory drills the angled hole. I spent some time on the phone with Al and he recommended moving the front side of the intake forward to allow a better shot from the carb. Here's a diagram showing about how much I moved the port edge.



I started cutting the case and then put the airbox on to check the match. This picture shows the beginning of the cutting. I have only enlarged the hole about an 1/8" in this picture.



You need to blend the airbox into the case. I kept the same carb/airbox transition that Al had cut. Some of the people who do the "O-tuning" cut the bottom of the carb oval. I decided to leave the venturi round and transition into the case using the bottom of the airbox.

Here are some pictures showing how the airbox blends into the port cut into the case. I matched the contour of the front edge of the port at the rotary pad to the existing rear side of the port. I did not move the ends of the port as I wanted to make the timing changes with the crank.





On the rear side of the intake I just cleaned up the match from the airbox to the intake port in the case.



Here is where I fixed the step between the case and the airbox on the clutch side.



And that's it. I went ahead and flushed everything out and put in new crank bearings. Tomorrow I will put the motor back together.

Chuck

Last edited by chuckactor on Fri, 19 Aug 2016 18:10:46 +0000; edited 1 time

I went ahead and put the motor together yesterday. Well most of it that is. Vespa motors are pretty simple compared to most. The only Vespa specific tools I have used are the clutch socket and the flywheel puller. Oh yeah, the crank puller Al made for me.

The reassembly went pretty easy. My 7yo son decided to jump in and help for a couple hours. Yes, he actually did install the layshaft and the needle bearings.... He preferred any job that allowed him to play with the grease. Saw a great assembly tip from the Cockspeed tuning guys on YouTube. After putting all the needle bearing in grease around the shaft, put a small zip tie around them to hold them in place. When you tap the layshaft in, the zip tie just pops off and all the bearing stay put.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw8uW-gD3Us 2:15 in



Here is a shot with the new crank in place. The puller made the job easy. Just make sure to align a cut area of the crank with the rotary pad as you pull the crank in. It may not go in 100% straight to start and you don't want to risk shaving metal from the rotor pad. Hotrod Al told me a have the first of his new crank designs. It has the inlet timing modified by cutting the counterweight in both directions. The goal is to increase the inlet timing and reduce the blow-back at low RPM.



I actually got a little farther than this. I stopped at this point and cleaned everything up. I couldn't leave well enough alone so I installed the rear brake, airbox and stator after dinner.





I went ahead and put the piston, cylinder and head on and went about measuring the squish clearance. I knew it was big but figured there was no point in trying to correct it till I put in the new crank. I am shooting for about 1.2mm. The clearance is running about 1.8mm. I am going to fire the head off to Al and have him cut 0.6mm from the surface prior to final assembly.

While I was at it, I decided to double check all the port timing numbers on the motor. I used the same TDC setup as before and printed out a degree wheel and made a pointer out of a piece of coat hanger. I used a magnet to hold the degree wheel to the end of the crank (thanks Dave at ScooterMercato).



Here are the actual timing numbers from the motor for those who are curious...

Exhaust Opening - 91deg ATDC
Exhaust Duration - 178deg
Transfer Opening - 117deg ATDC
Transfer Blowdown - 26deg
Boost Port Opening - 121 deg ATDC
Intake Opening - 115deg BTDC
Intake Closing - 61deg ATDC
Intake Duration - 176deg

Chuck

Last edited by chuckactor on Sat, 28 Jan 2012 18:49:58 +0000; edited 2 times

I think I'd get more comments or feedback if I was installing a cigarette lighter or perhaps some neon...

I am enjoying this threadand your rebuild, you're doing a nice job.

I just have nothing to add.

True, don't let it get you down. I'm following.

i put my eyes on ur projec as well mate

good luck with the project and cheer

LULZ

You're doing some cool shit here. Way beyond my basic vintage abilities and I respect that. Hope that thing is fast.

We're reading. Look at your "views" count.

Dunno about anybody else, but I always click on "projects" first. Good stuff.

Keep it coming.

Dooohhooohhoooooood ! That is no doubt the best thread I've stumbled across here... a real page turner (no shit) Fantastic info, killer pics (nice macro-looking stuff) Just killer... please keep 'em coming. I think I'll just say F' it, bundle up and suffer the cold in the garage, just to go take something apart or put it together.
Really great man. I could only hope to make such a nice, organized presentation.
Cheers.

The head is off to AL to be cut so I thought I'd play around with the suspension a bit. I have already installed the Clauss bushings so I figure, why not match it with the rear upper shock mount while I'm at it. I also picked up a set of Carbone Sport shocks from ScooterMercato when they had their last big sale. I forgot to order the extension for the back shock and Dave was kind enough to ship me a couple different lengths as I was unsure what I would need. I also bought the uber expensive longer bottom shock bolt from 226 Vintage. The rear hanger for the pipe attaches to the shock bolt and the bolt is barely long enough stock. No big issue until you realize its a 9mm bolt and they are unobtainium. The only 9mm bolts I could find were exotic connecting rod bolts etc. 8mm yes. 10mm yes... 9mm... no.

226 has the bolts and nuts custom made from hex stock. I believe some people run 3/8" hardware in a pinch. Anyway, the most expensive bolt I ever bought.



I started with the front shock first. It's only four bolts and its out. I didn't take any pics because it went super fast. Once the shock is out you just need to swap the mounting hardware over to the new shock. I used a large pair of channel locks to hold the shock and a 17mmm wrench to get the top nut off.



Getting the top nuts back on was a bit tricky as the bolts are not 100% captive and want to slide up when you touch them. I even finally replaced the lower bolts with some longer ones so the nuts would go on all the way.



As you can see I still have my pulley brake setup and the thickness of the cable bracket required longer lower shock bolts.



Now its time to pull the gas tank and do the back mount and shock....

Chuck

I started taking some more measurements whle I was at it. I know Al spent a good bit of time with the exhaust port. Mine appeared alot bigger than stock.



From what I could find on the web, the exhaust port width of the three P200 kits is:

Malossi 210 - 44mm
Polini 208 - 39mm
Pinasco 215 - 38mm

I went ahead and made a quick rubbing of the port so I could get the width (~46.5mm).



The width on paper was then converted to get the chord width:

bore*sin(width/bore) or 65*sin(46.5/65) = 43.1mm

So the width of my exhaust is almost as big as a stock Malossi cylinder (approx 63% of the bore).

Not to be left well enough alone... I noticed that the bottom of the transfer paorts was below the top of the piston at bottom dead center (BDC). Here is a picture of the piston and ports with the cylinder using the stock gasket.



It's hard to see but the ports are approx 1.5mm blow the top edge of the rings. If I raise the cylinder 1.5mm then they are about flush.



Maybe the Pinasco is best suited for a stroker. A stroker w/o a packing plate. Either way, the head and squish would still be all wrong and the timing would be questionable. I decided to leave well enough alone and have Al cut the head for use w/o a packer. In the future I could always try to raise the cylinder 1.5mm if I wanted a bit more aggressive timing. If I did:

The exhaust duration would go from 178deg --> 182deg
and the blowdown would go from 26deg --> 29deg

Might work out well but at this point we need to just get it running. I did read that it really doesn't matter if the bottom of the transfers are below the edge of the piston. Basically most of the transfer action happens in the top 2/3 of the port. On alot of the Yamaha 2-strokes, the bottom of the transfers are blow the piston at BDC.

Anyway, just something to think about for later.

Chuck

both the pinasco and stock cylinder port locations work well with a long stroke crank. Though I prefer the shorter stroke and packing the cylinder so the piston sits flush with the ports at BDC.

Are there any places in the US where I can buy a packing plate or better yet, is there a place that can laser or water jet them to various thicknesses and configurations?

It would be cool to find a place that you could ship a gasket and have them duplicate it in metal plate for a reasonable cost.

Chuck

Very good job Chuck! I'm following this post since you created it!

Good work! 8)

I went ahead and installed the rear shock today. With no engine and gas tank in the bike it was pretty easy. I just laid the bike on it's side to get to the inside of the rear fender.

Here's a shot of the two shocks and their respective upper mounts side by side.



As you can see, the stock shock is a bit shorter than the Carbone Sport that is replacing it. I wanted to keep the same ride height so I got a a couple different length rear shock spacers. Based on a quick measurement, I'd say the Carbone shock is approximately 13mm longer than the stocker.



The stock shock spacer measured 55mm long. The two options that Dave sent me were 43mm and 53mm. By using the 43mm spacer, I was able to match the same length as the stock shock setup. I'm not sure what bike this spacer is designed for. Just ask Dave at ScooterMercato for the 43mm (shorter) spacer if you want the same height.

Here is a picture of the heavy duty Clauss upper shock mount next to the stock rubber mount.



I just held the new mount up to the frame and marked for the new mounting hole. The bolt that goes into the original hole is a welded in stud and the new bolt is an allen. The new hole I drilled is at the top.



Then the mounted is bolted in place using the supplied hardware and the rubber insulator pad. The frame has a raised bead under the shock mount. the rubber pad has a groove molded into it to go over the raised metal.



Then you just screw everything back on. I used lock washers between the shock and spacer and between the spacer and the upper mount like the original configuration.



Just waiting for the head now.

Chuck

Chuck, thanks to your thread, I sent my racing pk ets crankshaft out to Al to rework. should be killer!

Taking my engine to Al on Monday for a stem to stern rebuild.

Going for a touring tune, so less radical on the HP side, but more torque.

Seeing this just makes me drooool.

My HRS PK ETS Crankshaft is in the mail. Can't wait to post pictures of it.

Hopefully my head is in the mail as well. This bike has in in pieces too long.

I kept getting weird squish measurements when I checked it. I measure it in 4 places when I check. The last time I did, I would get like 1.6mm on one side and 2.0mm on the other. I basically averaged the two numbers to come up with estimated squish.

Looking back on it, I have a theory. The squish band of the head is cut at an angle slightly greater than the angle of the crown of the piston. Typically 2-3 degrees greater. Last time I had the head on and off, I noticed that it could move around quite a bit relative to the barrel. My guess is that the head was getting placed on the cylinder off-center.

Turns out the stud holes in the head have a bit of slop in them relative to the OD of the studs. When I get the head back, I am going to install dowel pins over two of the studs to locate the head and barrel together.

I located some sleeves that are 8.5mm ID , 10mm OD and 16mm long. These should work perfect. I'll use a 10mm drill bit to counter-bore two of the stud holes in the head and barrel to capture the pins. This is basically what Pinasco does with their aftermarket heads.

I'll take pictures of the mod when I get the head back.

Chuck