Modern Vespa

I would like to put the gossip and the speculation and the uncertian comments about "the GTS 250 is quicker than the GTS300", I want to do the real test. If you think the GTS 250 is quicker/faster tha the GTS 300 please PM me and we will test it on the HWY (I-10) near Tucson,AZ or HWY 19 (Tucson to Mexico), I ride a GTS 300.

I live in Tucson, have a GPS and can have someone following on video and filming it you can have another person filming it as well. Anyone want to try it?
If I find out that the GTS 250 is actually quicker/faster then we can have a reference for the entire forum and we can put this silly debate to rest forever. Thanks!

Last edited by scooterist on Sun, 25 Sep 2011 03:45:49 +0000; edited 3 times

I doesn't really matter - my Sport City 250 will beat both scooters and do it more sporty-like

^^ bring it along too.. 8)

Actually most folks that have commented on this have suggested that the 300 accelerates more quickly at low to medium speeds and the 250 does better at higher speeds. Not really the same as saying that the 250 is "quicker/faster" than the 300. Before you suggest some kind of match-up, you'll need to decide what is is you are testing.

My plan was honestly to do multiple test. My test were about top speed, acceleration from a roll and acceleration from a dead stop but doing this multiple times to make sure that we get consistent results.

I am doing this for the community and mainly for me because I find it fun to do and I always like comparisons. Thanks for asking though.

I foresee an episode of "Pinks" in the making.....

I'd be willing to put my GT200 into this challenge as well. I think the 300 is fast in test rides (off the line and around the block), but that's about it.

Last edited by oopsclunkthud on Sun, 25 Sep 2011 05:09:25 +0000; edited 1 time

^^ By all means, I am inviting any other scooterist that owns a GTS250 and/or a GTS 300 to do the same test in any other road at anytime. Bring a GT200 to the part as well

Maybe do it at the Great Southwest Scooter Fiesta next month....??

I've been led to believe that the 300 was desigined to pull a double bottom plow, and the 250 is for doubling up with a fat chick on behind.
The real sport machine is the GT 200L.

I don't know about scientific testing, but...

My GTV 250 totally smoked a white Super on the way home this evening. Dunno if the other guy was actually trying all that much, but it still amused me. Possible it was a 250 Super, but I kind of doubt it.

Race for pinks!

Well my Moto Guzzi California 1100i will outgun all of you.

But is that really why you have a scooter?

If you want to go really fast go and buy a super sporty sports bike and that will stop motorcyclists laughing at you when you are trying to hide behind that tiny windscreen, laying down and screwing the last 1mph out of an already screaming engine.

I am playing devils advocate here.

I thought scooters were more about class than speed. I have got my eye on a new GTV 300 to do a bit of touring with my girlfriend and just slow down and enjoy the view a bit.

I will still keep the Moto Guzzi though.

Steve

Now come on Steve.
Here we all are plotting and scheming, and then you go and be all sensible on us!
If I lived anywhere near Arizona, I'd be in instantly. A speed test of scoots is just the sort of ridiculous test-for-no-reason that I love. Can someone get a Sportcity in there too please?

Better not plan to do this on I-19; it's become a hotbed of DPS revenue enhancement!

If I get to pick the road, I'll easily spank your Guzzi.

See, there's another reason we ride scooters. Motorcycles are fast in a straight line and even handle well on big sweeper. Relative to scooters, though, motorcycles are big and heavy and hard to turn. On the roads we like to ride (sometimes referred to as "goat trails"), even sport bikes are inferior machines.

I think someone might have a bit of an inferiority complex.

As someone who owns both and who regularly rides with others on similarly equipped machines, there's really no doubt -- we've done this test a million times in our everyday riding.

Here are the facts:

- Both bikes have a very similar top speed. The rev limiter, after all, is the same. The variator is the same but with different weights. The final drive gearing is rumored to be different, but we haven't opened up the gears to count the teeth yet and we're a bit skeptical that it's different.

- The 300 is a stroked motor, which gives it a power curve that peaks at an earlier RPM and then falls off. This gives the 300 lots of off-the-line power.

- The 250 has a power curve that produces less power overall but peaks at a later (larger) RPM.

- To maintain top speed on either bike, you have to get the bike all the way (or very near to) the rev limit. This is difficult on either bike on anything except a smooth, flat road.

- By the time the 250 reaches the rev limit, power is starting to fall off.

- By the time the 300 reaches the rev limit, power has fallen off dramatically.

- You can coax the 300 up to the same top speed as a 250, but you will have a harder time doing it. Any resistance (wind, hills, the rider's wind profile) will have a more pronounced effect on the 300 than the 250 up near the top end. The 250 will have a much easier time maintaining that top speed than the 300 will.

--

What I'm saying here is that engine size isn't everything, and we Americans tend to be stupidly brainwashed into believing displacement trumps everything else. The Italians, meanwhile, are trying to figure out how to trick Americans into thinking that the 300 is an improvement while not doing any substantial engineering work, and so gave us a stroked motor.

What's far, far more important than how many CCs the engine has or even how much power it makes is where in the band it makes it. If you want a city bike, the 300 is great. If you want a touring bike, the 250 is probably a better choice. I know that would be (and in fact is, since I own both) my own personal choice.

--

Here are some things your test will be incapable of quantifying:

- Any two GTSs (same engine size) are going to behave slightly differently from each other. Some of these reasons are mechanical, such as how well it was broken in, whether the variator pulley is worn, size of rear tire, and so on.

- Any two GTSs that are otherwise identically equipped mechanically will randomly trade off position, with one getting faster and one getting slower, for no apparent reason. We have done this for extended lengths of time (hundreds of miles in a row) during Cannonball. The effect is real. Sometimes the ECU will put out full power, and sometimes it won't. Nobody knows why (though I have some guesses).

- While both the 250 and the 300 have similar top speeds, it's harder for the 300 to get there and it has a harder time staying there once it's reached it.

--

So please, by all means, hold your test. But if you think your single data point will change reality, you are sadly mistaken.

And where would a air-cooled 190 fit in the mix? Beats em all up to about 30, right?

Jess,
Do you ever plow with your 300?

Ok if the 300 isnt quite as fast as the 250 I think we need a tug o war or tractor pull type of test.At least then we can see if the 300 has more power.

It should shouldn't it?

I know that I wasn't tricked by the Italians and I don't think they were trying to trick anyone. I like what they did to get to a 300 (278), whether they simply stroked the 250 or not. Piaggio figured out that Americans are big on torque, essentially usable power. The 300 motor is great for that. Vespas are not primarily designed as high speed tourers, as I'm sure you know. They excel at urban use, and the 300 is among the best for that.

I may never take my 300 GTV to its top speed, and I'm probably not alone. I don't need to go 80 mph on a scooter. I'm satisfied that it pulls just fine up to the legal speeds in my area, and mine's not even broken in yet. Most definitely, I will appreciate the scoot's off the line and lower speed abilities every time I use it, which will be often.

Much as I prefer my VW GTI (small displacement engine but abundant torque with its turbo) to a Honda Civic Si, which produces most of its power at the top of the rev range, I prefer the 300 to smaller displacement scooters.

To put things into perspective, Piaggio didn't stick a 600 or 1300 or whatever engine (if they could shoehorn such a thing in there) into the Vespa, they added a little size and power, albeit at a lower rpm. That works for me, although it may not be so much to your liking.

By no means am I knocking the 250 GTS or any other Vespa. I think they're all great. I'm just saying I'm happy with my purchase and that the 300 is perfect for me.

I can only speak of my personal experience:
The wife has a 250, I have a 300
She has a taller windscreen than I
She weighs in at around 130, I weigh in around 175
Her scooter is one year older than mine
We both have a little over 11K miles on the scooters
We both run the same rear tire, Pirelli
She has red, I have black
We have ridden thousands of miles together, many of those miles on freeways +75 mph

That all said - in every situation except on slight downhill grades at top speed
My 300 is always quicker and faster, in the cases mentioned above she never pulls away

Rarely do we ever hit the rev limiter;
It is only when riding at lower altitude do we hit the limiter - most of our ridding is higher altitude

Malossi have produced an upgear kit for the 300, to go along with their 280cc cylinder and V4 head. It does not work on the 250 because it actually brings the 300 gearing closer to the 250 gearing.

Mike

Based on the tooth counts of the mallosi kit (having held them in hand and counted) it would be an upgear for the 250 and does look like it will fit. should have 300 tooth counts soon.

The 300 will be quicker off the line but the 250 will have a higher top end.

Sorted.

Bill X

And the skinny lightweights who can make the GT200 go faster than any of them - well I've seen them ride. They add extra horsepower just by being in close proximity to any bike.

But for your average bloke, on a stock machine, with no more than a fly-screen, and no 'scooter-tucks' - it's quite clear to this 'normal bloke' who owns all three:

The 200 is the most fun because you have to wring its neck, and it likes it.
The 250 is the one for enjoying every bit of a long journey.
The 300 is the best urban warrior machine Vespa have yet produced.

And as a topic-veering aside about current machines:
Best close-contact-sport urban machine: LX 125/150.
Best suburban gofer and twistie gourmand in all weathers: MP3 500 (Fuoco).
Best 'ride with the boys': GP800 - no contest there whatsoever.

And finally - the most comfortable very-long-distance 100mph+ machine that Piaggio have ever produced: X9 500, still the Rolls-Royce of the fleet IMHO.

Just so.

This is SO easy.

Anyone with a scoot, Android phone and interested can use
RacerDroid. (free) It has 0-60ft, 0-330ft and 1/8 mile.

There simply needs to be an agreement on format and the tests can be done anywhere and not necessarily together.

Post picture of graph and the "leader" can compile the data and get an "average"

250 vs 300

One gets to 100 kmh in 13.9 seconds
One gets to 100 kmh in 14.5 seconds

http://www.thescooterreview.com/component/content/article/399-vespa-gts-300?start=1

Both are slow. I guess the argument here is which is the least slow...

Thats a battle I want to win! Least slow!

But mine -was- faster. Not sure why of course. But it was. it was teh awesome until I busted it.

(pretending you were talking about me and not Patrick, who you were actually talking about)

I do feel annoyed I lost 4mph on my top speed when swapping engines tho. Cest la vie.

Are they rev limited? I have all sorts of upgrades-( malossi air filter, variator, and torque driver, and iridium plug) though standard weight roller, tire size, rear end gears. Won't go over about 8900 rpm which indicated as 80 (maybe 81). Tach bad? I am a good judge of speed and was probably doing 80 mph. I weigh less than 140 lbs fully dressed with helmet, etc.

What is a "stroked" motor?

A motor that has a crank with a longer stroke resulting in larger displacement.
GT125-200 48.6mm stroke
GTS250 60mm stroke
GTS300 63mm stroke

the longer the stroke the lower the RPM where the piston will fly to bits. At 9000 RPM the 250 was right at the upper limit (18m/s) of piston speed. The 300 hits that same piston speed at 8550 RPM.

Please don't conduct these performance tests on a public road. Find a closed course.

I might run a test this weekend and put my GT200, Mana850 (factory), RSV4 Factory APRC SE and Toyota Corolla against each other to get some acceleration numbers.

Should be interesting. Guessing that the Vespa won't be the quickest but should be the most economical..

Thanks Patrick.

Please don't tell other adults what to do.

I am always up for a challenge Jess.

So here is the road:



And here is the bike on that very same road, just waiting to thrash you:



It is the Stelvio Pass in Italy. The bends you can see is just a small part of the pass. There are loads of hairpins on both sides of the pass and you just cannot see how steep it is. A great road to ride. Really good fun.

Steve

It's on my bucket list, for sure.