Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:51 pm

Sir Frets-A-Lot
Vespa GT250ie/L, Honda Ruckus 50, Honda NT700V, Honda CB125
Joined: 03 Nov 2005
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Location: Bee eff eee.
 
Sir Frets-A-Lot
Vespa GT250ie/L, Honda Ruckus 50, Honda NT700V, Honda CB125
Joined: 03 Nov 2005
Posts: 11197
Location: Bee eff eee.
Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:51 pm linkquote
jess wrote:
Isn't that the most beautiful thing you've ever seen in your whole entire life?

I know it is for me.



phew! problem solved!!!!!!111oneoneoneoneone
Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:28 pm

Petty Tyrant
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Petty Tyrant
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Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:28 pm linkquote
Re: Oh yes
TheO.Z. wrote:
phew! problem solved!!!!!!111oneoneoneoneone
Well, yeah, but... there's still the small matter of putting the engine back in.

And shaking it down again.
Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:31 pm

Banned
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Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:31 pm linkquote
The rest of the shakedown ride was great.

JimC caught me shortly after the gate at Mt Diablo.



I also used this as a chance to try out matching the GPS track to the photo timestamp to geotag the photos. Worked out well, both the spot and photos show up on the map in the Out Riding thread.
Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:55 pm

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Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:55 pm linkquote
Here's a shot the go pro picked up.



Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:00 pm

eeee-bip
BMW R1100RT Royal Enfield 500 Trials
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 17941
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
 
eeee-bip
BMW R1100RT Royal Enfield 500 Trials
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Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:00 pm linkquote
Pin
Oh that's so shiney and clean. I'll get my Butler to do mine later.

Well done on the focused application.

Bill X
Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:15 am

Molto Verboso
04 GT200 & 2005 PX150(sold), 2005 Bajaj Tuktuk
Joined: 03 Aug 2010
Posts: 1763
Location: pa
 
Molto Verboso
04 GT200 & 2005 PX150(sold), 2005 Bajaj Tuktuk
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Location: pa
Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:15 am linkquote
Re: Oh yes
jess wrote:
Isn't that the most beautiful thing you've ever seen in your whole entire life?

I know it is for me.



yes indeedy!

looks fab! glad that bugger came out quickly and quietly

now that it's free, I hope that takes care of the stud issue!
Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:30 am

eeee-bip
BMW R1100RT Royal Enfield 500 Trials
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eeee-bip
BMW R1100RT Royal Enfield 500 Trials
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:30 am linkquote
Nets
It shines, it dazzles, it excites.

Bill X
Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:24 am

Petty Tyrant
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:24 am linkquote
Re: Nets
Bill Dog wrote:
It shines, it dazzles, it excites.
Yeah, but that's not why it's so beautiful. It's so beautiful because there are two brand new studs occupying the spots where one failed and one compromised stud used to be, and I didn't have to crawl around on the ground with a mig welder to make it happen. What started as a potential failure that was going to keep me out of Cannonball (or at least make me hustle all week trying to get it fixed) turned out to be fairly simple to replace, with parts personally delivered by a good friend and tools personally delivered by another good friend.

It's hard to properly convey my elation at seeing those shiny new studs in place.
Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:27 am

Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 40222
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
 
Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:27 am linkquote
Lessons from the shakedown run:

If you want top speed, don't use a front rack. Laden with a 1.5gal fuel container it cut top speed by 10mph.

The Airhawk is awesome on long fast boring straights (freeways etc) but counter-productive when riding very progressively in the twisties. Save some storage room for it.

Get the rear suspension pre-load and tyre pressure properly dialled in. Running at posn. 3 and 2.3 bar made the ride too skippy on not-perfect-surface sharp turns. Plus - the Power Pure tyres run cooler than steel-belted ones (I was surprised by how much), so lose a little more pressure to help them get to a 'sticky' temperature. More experimenting needed...

Don't think because you're on a stock bike with a huge handicap that you have no chance on CB - the kitted bikes have multiple extra potential failure modes you don't have to worry about.

Those with Drift HD cameras - if you change the battery you have to re-set the time and date. This might be a gotcha if relying on one for time-keeping.
Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:31 am

Petty Tyrant
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Petty Tyrant
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:31 am linkquote
jimc wrote:
Don't think because you're on a stock bike with a huge handicap that you have no chance on CB - the kitted bikes have multiple extra potential failure modes you don't have to worry about.
True, that. Don't bring a quarter-mile bike to Cannonball (like I am). Kitted bikes are definitely less reliable.

That said, the stock GTS will eat exhausts -- even stock ones -- on Cannonball.
Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:43 am

eeee-bip
BMW R1100RT Royal Enfield 500 Trials
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
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eeee-bip
BMW R1100RT Royal Enfield 500 Trials
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:43 am linkquote
Munch
Thanks for that Jim and Jess.

Interesting feedback on the Airhawk. On the Amsterdam run I tried to keep riding for as long as possible and my cute buns didn't get that uncomfortable after 3 and a half hours solid.

So 1 I can't win with such a new GTS and two my pipe will fail before the finish huh ?

I'm setting the rear shock up for the hardest setting and changing the Pirelli in Savanah for a MCG.

7 days now for me.
Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:45 am

Petty Tyrant
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:45 am linkquote
jimc wrote:
Glad you got it out Jess. Use a magnesium-based anti-seize for hot stainless steel slip joints (most stuff in the US seems to be alumin(i)um based). The goo at the bottom of a Milk of Magnesia bottle is 'perfick' for this task.
I've been doing some research on this topic. It appears that there are in fact some specific instances in the aircraft maintenance world where MoM as an anti-seize is specifically called for in the repair manual. I'm having trouble finding any other commercially available products that are billed as magnesium anti-seize.

Digging further, though, I've found several references to nickel-based anti-seize being useful for SS metals, and that is readily available in an anti-seize paste, so I may go that route. Or, I may just leave the joint completely dry and live with a minor leak at the joint.
Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:49 am

Petty Tyrant
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:49 am linkquote
Re: Munch
Bill Dog wrote:
So 1 I can't win with such a new GTS and two my pipe will fail before the finish huh ?
You can easily win amongst the GTSs. Any performance advantage that I might have could be completely eclipsed by a navigation error, or a breakdown, or even getting put on the truck. Cannonball is less about raw performance and more about consistent performance.

As for your exhaust, yes -- the prognosis isn't good. If you ride a stock GTS hard for extended periods of time day in and day out, the exhaust will fail. Specifically the exhaust gasket, but sometimes the header will break. The best strategy there is to have a couple of exhaust gaskets on hand and hopefully a spare header pipe as well.
Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:52 am

Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:52 am linkquote
jess wrote:
It appears that there are in fact some specific instances in the aircraft maintenance world where MoM as an anti-seize is specifically called for in the repair manual.
I was given that tip by a British Airways maintenance Supervisor.
Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:54 am

Ossessionato
Temporarily Scooterless... :(
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 2117
Location: Albuquerque, NM
 
Ossessionato
Temporarily Scooterless... :(
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:54 am linkquote
Re: Munch
jess wrote:
Bill Dog wrote:
So 1 I can't win with such a new GTS and two my pipe will fail before the finish huh ?
You can easily win amongst the GTSs. Any performance advantage that I might have could be completely eclipsed by a navigation error, or a breakdown, or even getting put on the truck. Cannonball is less about raw performance and more about consistent performance.

As for your exhaust, yes -- the prognosis isn't good. If you ride a stock GTS hard for extended periods of time day in and day out, the exhaust will fail. Specifically the exhaust gasket, but sometimes the header will break. The best strategy there is to have a couple of exhaust gaskets on hand and hopefully a spare header pipe as well.
...and a couple of extra exhaust studs...(plus tools for removal/install)!

Desi B.
Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:58 am

Petty Tyrant
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:58 am linkquote
Re: Munch
primordialdancer wrote:
...and a couple of extra exhaust studs...(plus tools for removal/install)!
It's possible, but let's hope not. You really do not want to try to change an exhaust stud in the parking lot in East Podunk. You'd need the engine out, plus a drill, a centerpunch, a spiral flute extractor, and (preferably) some left-handed drill bits.

Realistically, a stock exhaust is probably not going to break an exhaust stud quite as readily as an aftermarket exhaust. It's possible, and we've seen it happen, but it's not such a common event.
Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:59 am

Petty Tyrant
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:59 am linkquote
jimc wrote:
jess wrote:
It appears that there are in fact some specific instances in the aircraft maintenance world where MoM as an anti-seize is specifically called for in the repair manual.
I was given that tip by a British Airways maintenance Supervisor.
Well there you go. He knew what he was talking about.
Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:01 am

eeee-bip
BMW R1100RT Royal Enfield 500 Trials
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 17941
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
 
eeee-bip
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:01 am linkquote
Dust
Spare gaskets we have so we are covered if they blow.
I'm pretty sure the dual tank GTS riders will end up ahead of us because of the not stopping factor but that's not to say I'm not going to stay in the saddle for as long as possible.
There's one factor that may slow me down and that's the amount of vinyl that I'll be carrying.
Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:05 am

Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:05 am linkquote
Rubber, Vinyl, whatever next?
Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:09 am

Ossessionato
Temporarily Scooterless... :(
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Ossessionato
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:09 am linkquote
jimc wrote:
Rubber, Vinyl, whatever next?
Latex... then Leather... Maybe throw in some Naugahide for a grand finale...?

Desi B.
Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:19 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 Vespa LX 190, 2011 LXV150ie
Joined: 26 Oct 2008
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Location: Annapolis, MD, USA
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:19 am linkquote
jess wrote:
Kitted bikes are definitely less reliable.
I don't think that's necessarily true. I did what was essentially two mini-Cannonballs back to back (6 days @ 330 miles/day, 3-day layover, then 6 more days @ 330 miles/day in 95-degree heat) on a kitted LX with no problems at all other than wearing out a rear tire each way. Beyond changing the tire, no maintenance at all needed other than adding a little oil and air in the tires.

I know it's a single data point, but...
Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:18 am

The Beer Guy
2010 GTS 300 Super and 2015 Kawasaki Versys 650 LT
Joined: 30 Jun 2010
Posts: 4744
Location: Nelson County, VA
 
The Beer Guy
2010 GTS 300 Super and 2015 Kawasaki Versys 650 LT
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Posts: 4744
Location: Nelson County, VA
Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:18 am linkquote
I'm carrying two exhaust header pipes, a spare exhaust, gaskets and nuts.
Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:19 am

eeee-bip
BMW R1100RT Royal Enfield 500 Trials
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eeee-bip
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:19 am linkquote
More Batter
Dry Roasted or Salted ?

Bwap.
Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:23 am

Petty Tyrant
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:23 am linkquote
Silver Streak wrote:
jess wrote:
Kitted bikes are definitely less reliable.
I don't think that's necessarily true. I did what was essentially two mini-Cannonballs back to back (6 days @ 330 miles/day, 3-day layover, then 6 more days @ 330 miles/day in 95-degree heat) on a kitted LX with no problems at all other than wearing out a rear tire each way. Beyond changing the tire, no maintenance at all needed other than adding a little oil and air in the tires.
I don't think there's any doubt that a kitted bike can make it, but that doesn't mean they have the same reliability level. In my case, I'm generating quite a bit more heat than a normal engine would, and that heat has to go somewhere. The exhaust system bears the brunt of that.

The other reason that a kitted bike can be less reliable is that some dimwit (like me) messed with it, ergo it is no longer "factory fresh". Done competently, that's not a factor. But mess something up and you might be in a world of hurt.
Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:25 am

Petty Tyrant
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:25 am linkquote
Silver Streak wrote:
I did what was essentially two mini-Cannonballs back to back (6 days @ 330 miles/day, 3-day layover, then 6 more days @ 330 miles/day in 95-degree heat)
One other thing: I think you should come along on Cannonball one of these times. I suspect you will find that, properly done, the Cannonball is a lot more grueling than you expected, even based on your previous experience.
Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:33 am

eeee-bip
BMW R1100RT Royal Enfield 500 Trials
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:33 am linkquote
Cell Block H
I'm gambling on a GTS that's only done 200 miles and has no real mods apart from the twat riding it.

If I was or had been a Mod that would have been so much funnier where as now it's just mildly amusing.

Bill X
Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:38 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 Vespa LX 190, 2011 LXV150ie
Joined: 26 Oct 2008
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Location: Annapolis, MD, USA
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 Vespa LX 190, 2011 LXV150ie
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:38 am linkquote
jess wrote:
Silver Streak wrote:
I did what was essentially two mini-Cannonballs back to back (6 days @ 330 miles/day, 3-day layover, then 6 more days @ 330 miles/day in 95-degree heat)
One other thing: I think you should come along on Cannonball one of these times. I suspect you will find that, properly done, the Cannonball is a lot more grueling than you expected, even based on your previous experience.
I won't argue that point, as I really have no basis to do so... other than my own experiences.

As to the general reliability of kitted bikes, I think it depends not only on the quality of the modification work, but also on the robustness built into the basic engine design. The bottom end of the LEADER 150 is shared with the 200, so no problem there. Getting rid of the heat at the top end is -- as you've said -- likely the biggest problem there. In my case, the Malossi cylinder was up to the task despite the stifling ambient heat, my 225-lb. bulk, and 75 lbs. of baggage... most of which I didn't really need.

On the L/C engines, though, I suspect there are as many extra calories borne by the cooling system as by the exhaust, although there will certainly be extra strain on both.

I'd wager an external oil cooler would go a long way toward improving the heat-load headroom of any kitted engine.
Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:46 am

Petty Tyrant
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:46 am linkquote
Silver Streak wrote:
I'd wager an external oil cooler would go a long way toward improving the heat-load headroom of any kitted engine.
The parts have been procured and an appropriate adapter fabricated. Unfortunately, it's too late to experiment with before CB, so that's going to have to be a future modification.
Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:56 am

Banned
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Location: San Francisco
 
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:56 am linkquote
jess wrote:
Silver Streak wrote:
I'd wager an external oil cooler would go a long way toward improving the heat-load headroom of any kitted engine.
The parts have been procured and an appropriate adapter fabricated. Unfortunately, it's too late to experiment with before CB, so that's going to have to be a future modification.
The oil cooler project, intended for cannonball but too late...

The adaptor is done, the cooler is here, have the hose and most of the fittings.

Don't have time to mount and test it.


Adaptor to mount where the filter goes.

Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:04 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 Vespa LX 190, 2011 LXV150ie
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:04 am linkquote
Aha! A worthy future project.

I want one for my bike when you get it sorted out.
Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:55 pm

Petty Tyrant
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:55 pm linkquote
Spent some time massaging the slip joint on the exhaust tonight, using a brake hone that Glasseye lent me. Did the job nicely.

Got the rear brake back on, which seized the rear wheel at first. Removed it again, played with it, reinstalled it, removed it once more, and now the rear wheel is moving again. Got the engine bolted back into the frame and the shocks bolted up, and the exhaust in place.

Now comes the arduous task of reconnecting everything and trying to figure out which way the cables are supposed to run. I've done this I don't know how many times now, and the cable routing is always a giant head-scratcher.





Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:19 pm

El Macho
KTM Super Duke 1290, Vespa GTS 300
Joined: 27 Oct 2006
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El Macho
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:19 pm linkquote
Now where did I get the impression that you weren't using an aftermarket exhaust? What was the problem with the PM slip joint? On one that I had it was really easy to slide the two parts together at first install, then it became really tight and impossible later on. (I sold it because I found it far too noisy in the city.)
Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:45 pm

Petty Tyrant
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Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:45 pm linkquote
DougL wrote:
What was the problem with the PM slip joint? On one that I had it was really easy to slide the two parts together at first install, then it became really tight and impossible later on.
It was tight going on, and became fused together after I ran it for a while. Really, really tight fit.

I've since honed out the inside so that it fits a bit looser. It might yet fuse again, though.
Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:10 am

Molto Verboso
2007 LX190 RIP 1980 Honda CM400T SOLD 2013 Shadow 750 RIP
Joined: 08 Apr 2008
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Location: Crofton,MD
 
Molto Verboso
2007 LX190 RIP 1980 Honda CM400T SOLD 2013 Shadow 750 RIP
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Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:10 am linkquote
jess wrote:
Now comes the arduous task of reconnecting everything and trying to figure out which way the cables are supposed to run. I've done this I don't know how many times now, and the cable routing is always a giant head-scratcher.
Refill your wine glass, never re-assemble with an empty glass.
Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:26 am

Petty Tyrant
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Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:26 am linkquote
got mine wrote:
Refill your wine glass, never re-assemble with an empty glass.
That's a pro-tip right there!
Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:44 am

Addicted
1980 P200e, 1956 ACMA, 1979 P200e, 1974 Ciao
Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 766
Location: Ithaca, NY
 
Addicted
1980 P200e, 1956 ACMA, 1979 P200e, 1974 Ciao
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Posts: 766
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Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:44 am linkquote
Advise on aux tank? - bleeding line
Hiya,

I put a 3 gallon auxiliary tank on my rear rack. I ran a hose down from the tank, down the air hole under my p200 seat, and joined it with the fuel line beneath the maon tank.

It all seemed simple. My plan was to leave the p200 fuel petcock closed, and open the shutoff on my auxiliary tank. When the aux tank was exhausted, I would then open the shutoff on the main tank, and run that out. I assumed that the shutoff on the main tank would prevent fuel from the aux tank from pushing its way into the main tank, which is lower.

I've run into 2 problems. 1) I have a very slight "uphill" on the hose running from the aux tank to the air hole under the seat. Air traps in that section, preventing fuel flow. 2) When I tried to get a siphon going, by pre-filling the hose with fuel, the fuel would back-flush into my main tank, even though the petcock is closed. I had been counting on the main tank shutoff to prevent fuel back-flow.

I'm tempted to put in a vent line, down by the T, and run it back up. This SHOULD allow fuel from the aux tank to flow down to the T. Unfortunately, I'm afraid, now, that fuel will backflush into my main tank and pour out of the main tank vent in the fuel cap.

I'm scratching my head, here. I'm fairly sure the vent line will solve the fuel flow problems, but now i'm struggling with how to keep fuel from backfilling the main tank. I suppose I could use a check valve.

Anyway, I'm just tossing this out there in case people have ideas.

Thanks,
Hojo
Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:19 am

Ossessionato
07 GTS250(RIP), 13 GTS300, Several Lambrettas
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Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:19 am linkquote
Without both tanks vented to the same pressure, you will get fuel starvation, I would be cautious of a check valve, for the same reason. What ever you do, make sure you get several hundred miles on your rig, in as many different scenarios as you can. Cannonball is not the place to be working out the kinks.
Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:58 am

Banned
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Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:58 am linkquote
The stock fuel tap has a long metal tube inside the tank that runs up hear the top of the tank. This tube is ALWAYS open to the fuel line, even when the tap is off, and is intended to let air out of of the line.

If you tee in your aux tank to the main fuel line it will overflow your main tank.

Option:
drill a hole in the top of the main tank and run your aux tank into that. Then your aux is just used to refill the main tank and then turned off again.
Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:41 am

eeee-bip
BMW R1100RT Royal Enfield 500 Trials
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Posts: 17941
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
 
eeee-bip
BMW R1100RT Royal Enfield 500 Trials
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 17941
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:41 am linkquote
Blow Me
I had an evening of cycle hill climbs planned for this evening but there's a chance that the VSO Sideways Transit may well arrive at Scutrbau's today.

I want to be here when it comes.

Bill XX
Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:55 am

Addicted
1980 P200e, 1956 ACMA, 1979 P200e, 1974 Ciao
Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 766
Location: Ithaca, NY
 
Addicted
1980 P200e, 1956 ACMA, 1979 P200e, 1974 Ciao
Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 766
Location: Ithaca, NY
Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:55 am linkquote
oopsclunkthud wrote:
The stock fuel tap has a long metal tube inside the tank that runs up hear the top of the tank. This tube is ALWAYS open to the fuel line, even when the tap is off, and is intended to let air out of of the line.

If you tee in your aux tank to the main fuel line it will overflow your main tank.

Option:
drill a hole in the top of the main tank and run your aux tank into that. Then your aux is just used to refill the main tank and then turned off again.
Patrick,

I was afraid of that. Perhaps I'll modify my fuel cap instead, rather than drill holes in the tank. I'll have to look at the options.

Thanks!
Hojo
  DoubleGood Vespa Design  

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