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@wanderingpurist avatar
UTC

Hooked
MP3 500ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 120
Location: Los Angeles
 
Hooked
@wanderingpurist avatar
MP3 500ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 120
Location: Los Angeles
UTC quote
I went out a few days ago 30 minutes earlier than I planned (I'd gone out at 6a the day before and was fine; I forgot and thought I went out at 5:30a so the next day...) and between the previous day's experience, online weather reports, and eyeballing the darkness (yeah, yeah, smart move that was, what did I expect to see, the speed of the air molecules showing their kinetic energy?!?) I expected to be cold, but fine.

Boy was I wrong. A few minutes into the ride my fingers started losing sensation and about 10 minutes later, I was seriously worried I wouldn't be able to make it home.

The indicated ambient temp was 39degrees F. WTF? I've been in 39degrees F before, and I understand about windchill (been in NYC, Chicago, the Twin Cities in winter) and I'd never felt so cold that I thought I was losing sensation, even possibly permanently losing a limb or appendage from frostbite.

Interesting thoughts I found on webbikeworld as I start researching real winter gloves rather than the enclosed (as opposed to mesh) Olympias I am using now.

"Real" Winter gloves? In Los Angeles?!? oy!

"The 45 F Factor
I'll admit that I haven't been giving the Ultima I gloves the same "finger time" as some of the other gloves in this comparison. But I've worn them enough to know that they should work well in what I'll guess is the coldest temperatures most motorcyclists will experience -- down to around 7 C (45 F) or so.

That number seems to be a critical point with all of the gloves in this comparison, except, of course, the Firstgear Carbon heated gloves (and I'll get to those soon, I promise!).

My theory involves the physics of cold combined with wind. Look at a wind chill chart and you'll notice that as the temperatures get down to around 45 F and the wind speed approches 55 MPH (88 KPH), the perceived temperature is 32 F, or 0 C, which, as we know, is the freezing point of water. "

So if the above is even close to scientific objectivity, 39F at 50mph would have felt like below 0c / freezing.

hmmmm...

Next time maybe I'll wait half an hour more, or get the true gauntlet style fully insulated gloves.

But then, unless the palm / underside is thin, you lose dexterity and feel...

compromises, compromises!
@bubbajon avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
RIP: MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5288
Location: Austin, TX
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@bubbajon avatar
RIP: MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5288
Location: Austin, TX
UTC quote
Re: "Magic Thresholds" - ambient temperature
WanderingPurist wrote:
Next time maybe I'll wait half an hour more, or get the true gauntlet style fully insulated gloves.

But then, unless the palm / underside is thin, you lose dexterity and feel...
compromises, compromises!
Get those $15 muffs from Amazon we posted about a while back - awesome!
@sidecutter avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
2009 MP3 400ie, Silver- "Lorelei Lee Long"
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1066
Location: Louisville, KY
 
Molto Verboso
@sidecutter avatar
2009 MP3 400ie, Silver- "Lorelei Lee Long"
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1066
Location: Louisville, KY
UTC quote
Yeah...wind chill is a lot stronger on the scoot than walking or any enclosed vehicle would ever prepare you for. Stronger than most people have likely experienced from actual wind, either.

I wear insulated leather gloves below 50F. Long johns if it's 45 or less going to work, or if the ride is longer at 55 or less. The heated vest comes out at 40 for my work ride, or anything under 50 on longer rides. If I need more, I can break out fleece glove liners and a heated pant liner.
@old_as_dirt avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 GTS
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22483
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@old_as_dirt avatar
2007 GTS
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22483
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
@raybjur avatar
UTC

Addicted
'10 Aprilia Mana GT
Joined: UTC
Posts: 720
Location: Central New Jersey
 
Addicted
@raybjur avatar
'10 Aprilia Mana GT
Joined: UTC
Posts: 720
Location: Central New Jersey
UTC quote
Keep in mind that the temp on the MP3 tends to read about 3 degrees warmer than actual so it was likely ~36 when you were out.
@heinlein avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
MP3 500, Ducati ST4s, Honda Silver Wing
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2649
Location: Roseburg, OR
 
Ossessionato
@heinlein avatar
MP3 500, Ducati ST4s, Honda Silver Wing
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2649
Location: Roseburg, OR
UTC quote
Re: "Magic Thresholds" - ambient temperature
WanderingPurist wrote:
I've worn them enough to know that they should work well in what I'll guess is the coldest temperatures most motorcyclists will experience -- down to around 7 C (45 F) or so.
Now that I've retired and can follow the sun I haven't ridden in COLD temperature much. For many people limiting their riding to days above 44 F would seriously cut into their riding.
An adjustable windscreen to deflect more wind and hand guards or muffs should help extend your ride-able days. I don't remember what it's called but I know some people have attached something to the bike which covers them from the waist down.
@raybjur avatar
UTC

Addicted
'10 Aprilia Mana GT
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Posts: 720
Location: Central New Jersey
 
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@raybjur avatar
'10 Aprilia Mana GT
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Posts: 720
Location: Central New Jersey
UTC quote
The waist-down cover is called a skirt. Rare to see in US, probably afraid a HD gang would want to steal it for their use! Clown emoticon
@alexb avatar
UTC

Addicted
2008 MP3-500
Joined: UTC
Posts: 553
Location: ANAHEIM CA USA
 
Addicted
@alexb avatar
2008 MP3-500
Joined: UTC
Posts: 553
Location: ANAHEIM CA USA
UTC quote
I also live in LA, and commute every day on my gold wing touring bike... I'm quite often the ONLY bike on the winter-road, which is to say that I ride in all conditions. I never use more than thin leather summer gloves, and Heated Grips. That combination will keep my hands comfortable down to 30F.

I recently put heated grips on my wife's MP3-500 and she totally loves them... she's like "W-o-w, now I realize why you think these are essential for riding!"... Warm hands = Warm body (eg The heat travels elsewhere, somewhat).

All said, I still think the MP3 would benefit from Side Wind Deflectors (as commonly used on touring bikes), to create a 'warm bubble of air' behind the windshield... am working on that one.

Another idea I've had (but not yet tried) is modifying the two Access Covers (on both sides, by rider's feet) to act as Warm Air Vents... My theory is that the engine heat could be Ducted through these, to warm the rider area.
@old_as_dirt avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 GTS
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22483
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@old_as_dirt avatar
2007 GTS
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22483
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
UTC quote
ALEXB wrote:
I also live in LA, and commute every day on my gold wing touring bike... I'm quite often the ONLY bike on the winter-road, which is to say that I ride in all conditions. I never use more than thin leather summer gloves, and Heated Grips. That combination will keep my hands comfortable down to 30F.

I recently put heated grips on my wife's MP3-500 and she totally loves them... she's like "W-o-w, now I realize why you think these are essential for riding!"... Warm hands = Warm body (eg The heat travels elsewhere, somewhat).

All said, I still think the MP3 would benefit from Side Wind Deflectors (as commonly used on touring bikes), to create a 'warm bubble of air' behind the windshield... am working on that one.

Another idea I've had (but not yet tried) is modifying the two Access Covers (on both sides, by rider's feet) to act as Warm Air Vents... My theory is that the engine heat could be Ducted through these, to warm the rider area.
the engine heat is behind you and it would be hard to get it to flow forward while your riding.
@jimc avatar
UTC

Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Posts: 43704
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
 
Moderaptor
@jimc avatar
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
UTC quote
old as dirt wrote:
the engine heat is behind you and it would be hard to get it to flow forward while your riding.
The heated air through the radiator however is in front.
@alexb avatar
UTC

Addicted
2008 MP3-500
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Posts: 553
Location: ANAHEIM CA USA
 
Addicted
@alexb avatar
2008 MP3-500
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Posts: 553
Location: ANAHEIM CA USA
UTC quote
jimc wrote:
old as dirt wrote:
the engine heat is behind you and it would be hard to get it to flow forward while your riding.
The heated air through the radiator however is in front.
> On cold days however, the radiator is mostly disconnected (via a thermostat), hence does not have any heat to offer.

On my wings, I've removed some side panels around the engine... and get lot's of hot air flow into the rider compartment... Having a big windshield helps maintain a nice bubble of static air around you, hence any warm air entered there tends to stay put.
@jimc avatar
UTC

Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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@jimc avatar
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Posts: 43704
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
UTC quote
ALEXB wrote:
jimc wrote:
old as dirt wrote:
the engine heat is behind you and it would be hard to get it to flow forward while your riding.
The heated air through the radiator however is in front.
On cold days however, the radiator is mostly disconnected (via a thermostat), hence does not have any heat to offer.

On my wings, I've removed some side panels around the engine... and get lot's of hot air flow into the rider compartment... Having a big windshield helps maintain a nice bubble of static air around you, hence any warm air entered there tends to stay put.
I call bollocks. Whether at idle or high speed, the engine temp gets to 100C within a few minutes. That's its designed running temperature, just 8C before the fan comes on. The ambient temperature variation makes almost no difference at those high temperatures. While running, even in freezing conditions, the temperature of the water entering the radiator will be within a few degrees C of 100C.

Once warmed up and being ridden, the thermostat should stay fully open.
@alexb avatar
UTC

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2008 MP3-500
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Location: ANAHEIM CA USA
 
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@alexb avatar
2008 MP3-500
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Posts: 553
Location: ANAHEIM CA USA
UTC quote
jimc wrote:
ALEXB wrote:
jimc wrote:
old as dirt wrote:
the engine heat is behind you and it would be hard to get it to flow forward while your riding.
The heated air through the radiator however is in front.
On cold days however, the radiator is mostly disconnected (via a thermostat), hence does not have any heat to offer.

On my wings, I've removed some side panels around the engine... and get lot's of hot air flow into the rider compartment... Having a big windshield helps maintain a nice bubble of static air around you, hence any warm air entered there tends to stay put.
I call bollocks. Whether at idle or high speed, the engine temp gets to 100C within a few minutes. That's its designed running temperature, just 8C before the fan comes on. The ambient temperature variation makes almost no difference at those high temperatures. While running, even in freezing conditions, the temperature of the water entering the radiator will be within a few degrees C of 100C.

Once warmed up and being ridden, the thermostat should stay fully open.
One of my (1500cc) wings came with some fancy after-market side-covers, that redirect 'available' engine heat from the radiators, into the driver compartment instead... They are mostly Worthless, even though they redirect 100% of the "radiator through air" onto me, the rider.

Here's an example of a such similar type side-vent... Notice that when it is closed, then All the "radiator through air" is redirected out though rearward facing vents, located by the driver's knees. That being said, the amount of heat thus delivered is barely noticable.

So then, if the available heat from a 1500 is insufficient, then even less could be expected from a (MP3) 500.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
@old_as_dirt avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 GTS
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22483
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@old_as_dirt avatar
2007 GTS
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22483
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
UTC quote
So Alex you want to use the air flow off the radiator as a heat source not directly off the engine. I would think you could possibly design some kind of duct but there is not a lot of room to deal with duct lines in the front end that would not interfere with suspension and the turning of the front wheels. Also need to consider air flow to keep air going over the radiator and not restrict the amount of air to do the cooling that it is currently designed to maintain.
@blue avatar
UTC

Enthusiast
Piagio MP3 250
Joined: UTC
Posts: 72
Location: Louisville, Kentucky
 
Enthusiast
@blue avatar
Piagio MP3 250
Joined: UTC
Posts: 72
Location: Louisville, Kentucky
UTC quote
Re: "Magic Thresholds" - ambient temperature
WanderingPurist wrote:
I went out a few days ago 30 minutes earlier than I planned (I'd gone out at 6a the day before and was fine; I forgot and thought I went out at 5:30a so the next day...) and between the previous day's experience, online weather reports, and eyeballing the darkness (yeah, yeah, smart move that was, what did I expect to see, the speed of the air molecules showing their kinetic energy?!?) I expected to be cold, but fine.

Boy was I wrong. A few minutes into the ride my fingers started losing sensation and about 10 minutes later, I was seriously worried I wouldn't be able to make it home.

The indicated ambient temp was 39degrees F. WTF? I've been in 39degrees F before, and I understand about windchill (been in NYC, Chicago, the Twin Cities in winter) and I'd never felt so cold that I thought I was losing sensation, even possibly permanently losing a limb or appendage from frostbite.

Interesting thoughts I found on webbikeworld as I start researching real winter gloves rather than the enclosed (as opposed to mesh) Olympias I am using now.

"Real" Winter gloves? In Los Angeles?!? oy!

"The 45 F Factor
I'll admit that I haven't been giving the Ultima I gloves the same "finger time" as some of the other gloves in this comparison. But I've worn them enough to know that they should work well in what I'll guess is the coldest temperatures most motorcyclists will experience -- down to around 7 C (45 F) or so.

That number seems to be a critical point with all of the gloves in this comparison, except, of course, the Firstgear Carbon heated gloves (and I'll get to those soon, I promise!).

My theory involves the physics of cold combined with wind. Look at a wind chill chart and you'll notice that as the temperatures get down to around 45 F and the wind speed approches 55 MPH (88 KPH), the perceived temperature is 32 F, or 0 C, which, as we know, is the freezing point of water. "

So if the above is even close to scientific objectivity, 39F at 50mph would have felt like below 0c / freezing.

hmmmm...

Next time maybe I'll wait half an hour more, or get the true gauntlet style fully insulated gloves.

But then, unless the palm / underside is thin, you lose dexterity and feel...

compromises, compromises!
I am riding year around! I found gloves at Bass Pro Shops in the Hunting Dept. they have gloves inside of wind proof water resistant Mittens that the finger and thumb compartments fold back to allow access to use your fingers. When it gets real cold 32 degrees or so I add a thin pair of nylon gloves on the inside of those and no frost bite yet. they really cut the wind I have got a little cold but nothing major. Now if I could keep my toes this warm I'd be ok.

Blue
@blue avatar
UTC

Enthusiast
Piagio MP3 250
Joined: UTC
Posts: 72
Location: Louisville, Kentucky
 
Enthusiast
@blue avatar
Piagio MP3 250
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Posts: 72
Location: Louisville, Kentucky
UTC quote
only 3 degrees?
raybjur wrote:
Keep in mind that the temp on the MP3 tends to read about 3 degrees warmer than actual so it was likely ~36 when you were out.
As I travel through town I see temp readings of 3 - 7 degrees colder than what my readout on the MP3 says ussually closer to the 7 degree mark than the three.

Because of this I always subtract 7 degrees when I ride.

Blue
@jimc avatar
UTC

Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Posts: 43704
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
 
Moderaptor
@jimc avatar
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Posts: 43704
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
UTC quote
ALEXB wrote:
So then, if the available heat from a 1500 is insufficient, then even less could be expected from a (MP3) 500.
I'd not be surprised - and that sort of reasoning is why I haven't bothered to investigate.

But there *is* warmer air coming through that radiator, even if it's not sensibly useful.
@jimc avatar
UTC

Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 43704
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
 
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@jimc avatar
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 43704
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
UTC quote
Re: only 3 degrees?
Blue wrote:
raybjur wrote:
Keep in mind that the temp on the MP3 tends to read about 3 degrees warmer than actual so it was likely ~36 when you were out.
As I travel through town I see temp readings of 3 - 7 degrees colder than what my readout on the MP3 says ussually closer to the 7 degree mark than the three.

Because of this I always subtract 7 degrees when I ride.

Blue
It's bang on 3C higher - so ~6F higher when the engine is hot and you're moving. As noted here many times, it goes even higher when you slow right down if the engine's hot.
@sanogeo1 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Red Mp 3 500
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1519
Location: Norman, Oklahoma. USA
 
Molto Verboso
@sanogeo1 avatar
Red Mp 3 500
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1519
Location: Norman, Oklahoma. USA
UTC quote
Granted that a lot of what is discussed is way above my head, I have noticed that even in cold weather that my fan kicks on when moving at a real slow speed, (think crawling) for any length of time. Edit, I wonder if the thermostat is similar to a car, the old spring and slug type inserted in line.
⚠️ Last edited by sanogeo1 on UTC; edited 1 time
@blue avatar
UTC

Enthusiast
Piagio MP3 250
Joined: UTC
Posts: 72
Location: Louisville, Kentucky
 
Enthusiast
@blue avatar
Piagio MP3 250
Joined: UTC
Posts: 72
Location: Louisville, Kentucky
UTC quote
Re: only 3 degrees?
jimc wrote:
Blue wrote:
raybjur wrote:
Keep in mind that the temp on the MP3 tends to read about 3 degrees warmer than actual so it was likely ~36 when you were out.
As I travel through town I see temp readings of 3 - 7 degrees colder than what my readout on the MP3 says ussually closer to the 7 degree mark than the three.

Because of this I always subtract 7 degrees when I ride.

Blue
It's bang on 3C higher - so ~6F higher when the engine is hot and you're moving. As noted here many times, it goes even higher when you slow right down if the engine's hot.
Thanks for the clarification, that is close to what I said as I was speaking in Fahrenheit, being from the US and over 40 I tend to think in terms of US measurement standards even though I agree that metric makes much more sense.

I have wondered where the temp sensor is, figuring it is probably affected by heat from the engine.

Blue
@ponydrvr avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Honda CTX 700D
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1328
Location: Louisville, KY
 
Molto Verboso
@ponydrvr avatar
Honda CTX 700D
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1328
Location: Louisville, KY
UTC quote
Indeed it is, the sensor is in the mad wall on the right side behind the wheels. The temp can't help but be in error.
UTC

Hooked
Piaggio MP3 500 & Zero SR
Joined: UTC
Posts: 368
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
 
Hooked
Piaggio MP3 500 & Zero SR
Joined: UTC
Posts: 368
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
UTC quote
I use the Oxford muffs for when it is really cold. My hands don't lose sensation. The lowest it has been when I've ridden was 18F.
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