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Well I just finished rebuilding and reinstalling my clutch. And I'm right back where I started.

I replaced every part excluding the basket and gear plate. Everything is brand new. I double checked and made sure everything was correct before reinstalling.

Still, no matter what I do, the clutch won't fully disengage. When I'm in gear and pull in the clutch, I'm still slightly in gear.

I've adjusted the cable adjuster to the micron, any tighter and the kicker won't work.

What else is there?

Goofy emoticon
⚠️ Last edited by astromags on UTC; edited 4 times
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I can't remember, but did that clutch Ever work?... and if so, you used the same thrust washer (same thinkness) as when it worked? (if it worked)?
Did you get the loaner from your friend? and try that?
Sorry for the 20, but I know how you feel re: clutch shit.
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I seem to remember somewhere in the archives of my sometimes faulty memory someone talking about the solid clutch plates having a slight curve to them. If one of these get flipped over, it causes drag and the pulling. Again, I'd hate to have you pull the clutch out for nothing. Maybe one of the experts can confirm or debunk this theory.
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That's a good one... some more unusual "quirks".
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That's pretty much my symptoms. I inspected the thrust washer and bushing the looked pretty good to me. It's amazing to me though that that thin little piece of metal can cause so much trouble. I thought for sure the fact that mine was shredded was the problem. obviously there is something else going on.


I got the clutch from my buddy. I guess that's my next option. Damn, I was hoping for simple fix.
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put his clutch in, just to rule out anything but your clutch... not sure exacly what, but you'd at least know for sure... cause if you have it together right, and all the parts are new.. it sounds like you'd be goo to go, but then again, as Killos thread points out it can be anything.
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yeah. I'm about to drag my ass out there and do that in a minute.
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Let us know what you figure out. It adds to the collective knowledgebase.
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Not to confuse things further, but I'd gone through 2 cosa clutches... no love, so I bought a Newfren banded model, an assortment of springs and plates to try... and I had it on and off so many times with different thrust washers, combinations thereof, reenforced retaining ring... I tried everything.. No love... I sent it to Gick to see if he'd have some luck, and it turns out that the basket isn't deep enough to allow the plates to separate... it appears that some manufacturing problem... is the problem... I had read of similar stories of guys going through them like hotcakes, but thought that was through gnarly thrashing... Anyway, I could have f'd with it 'till the cows came home, and it never would have worked...
That's one reason I wanted to know if Astro's clutch ever worked correctly.
Very interested to see if the loaner clutch works.
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Put the borrowed cosa clutch in, it's even worse. I'll have to fiddle with it some more tomorrow, I'm too tired and frustrated and beer buzzed now to fine tune anything but my pillow.

SO maybe it's not the clutch at all? What else is there?

I wish I knew more about it.

Could the cruciform or selector rod have anything to do with this at all?
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dude i wish i could help you .

one time i was riding down to Dallas for a Saturday long ride and i broke both shift cables about 20 miles from home. I waited for 4 hours for a tow truck that could take my scoot. It was very early in my ownership so i didnt have spares and had only changed them once. I was defeated for weeks...

bring yer bike anyway and we will work on it Friday nite.

edit: maybe that accentuator is worn? that might do it? grasping here.
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For one thing, the tabs on the corks that engage the basket, sometimes they need a little file work to move freely within the baskets fingers. Secondly, the steel plates can warp. place them on a flat surface to check for "waves". if they are just convexed, make sure you have them all convexed in the same direction. And your springs need to be fully seated in the drive plate recesses. And make sure the hole in the basket lines up with the hole in the drive plate.
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Astro, this is on the P200E right? I presume its the Autolube model. Is your washer on the clutch side of the crankshaft taper on correctly?
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Killo wrote:
I seem to remember somewhere in the archives of my sometimes faulty memory someone talking about the solid clutch plates having a slight curve to them. If one of these get flipped over, it causes drag and the pulling. Again, I'd hate to have you pull the clutch out for nothing. Maybe one of the experts can confirm or debunk this theory.
I remember reading that. I think it was in classic scooterist or some other mag.

I'm certaintly not an expert but I'm still having problems with my SS180 clutch (I'm now thinking it's the cush but thats for another thread.

Since then I have tried placing P200 plates, old and new, on a flat surface to check. I flipped those things over like a hundred times and could not see any curve.
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scootermarc69 wrote:
For one thing, the tabs on the corks that engage the basket, sometimes they need a little file work to move freely within the baskets fingers. Secondly, the steel plates can warp. place them on a flat surface to check for "waves". if they are just convexed, make sure you have them all convexed in the same direction. And your springs need to be fully seated in the drive plate recesses. And make sure the hole in the basket lines up with the hole in the drive plate.
Everything seems to be in order. Plus I'm having the same problem, when I install a different clutch that is known to be working.
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TravisNJ wrote:
Astro, this is on the P200E right? I presume its the Autolube model. Is your washer on the clutch side of the crankshaft taper on correctly?
Are you referring a washer on the actual crankshaft, or the brass washer inside the clutch?

I don't think there is a washer on the crankshaft. (not 100% sure though)

I may be confused but it seems like I remember reading the autolube gear acted in place of the washer? Again, I could be completely mistaken about that. I may be thinking of something else.

I'll check go a washer when I open it up again tonight.
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Travis, are you referring to part #52, I'm this diagram?

http://www.scooterhelp.com/manuals/VNX1T.VSX1T.parts/page018.jpg


I think it's the beveled washer.
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Hello

Some aftermarket clutch baskets do not have the the slots cut deep enough to allow complete seperation.
Also check the basket for nicks in the slots these will also hold the plates form seperating.

Regards


Grumpy
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Well after looking at scooterhelp, and finding the part on scootermercado, It says shoulder washer is on "non injection" models only.

http://www.scootermercato.com/s.nl/it.A/id.3447/.f?sc=7&category=922


(not sure if #52 is that part or not.)

This sucks.
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That scootermercato washer would replace the gear you have, IF your bike was a non auto-lube bike. the gear that you have (with the slot cut out for the w. key) is what you need (if you run auto lube... which I thought you were)
So.. if you have the oil drive gear (with the slot for the key) the you don't use this other washer.
I think when Travis said beveled washer, he was referring to this, and not the brass washer Inside the clutch (but I'll let him tell you... maybe I'm wrong)...

The brass washer with the little lip on it (the one I took a pic of that goes IN the clutch) isn't beveled, it just has a little lip (call it concave if you want), but not beveled. and if you put that in like my picture, that is correct.
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Vader19 wrote:
That scootermercato washer would replace the gear you have, IF your bike was a non auto-lube bike. the gear that you have (with the slot cut out for the w. key) is what you need (if you run auto lube... which I thought you were)
So.. if you have the oil drive gear (with the slot for the key) the you don't use this other washer.
I think when Travis said beveled washer, he was referring to this, and not the brass washer Inside the clutch (but I'll let him tell you... maybe I'm wrong)...

The brass washer with the little lip on it (the one I took a pic of that goes IN the clutch) isn't beveled, it just has a little lip (call it concave if you want), but not beveled. and if you put that in like my picture, that is correct.
I'm good on the brass lipped washer inside the clutch. double and tripple checked.

I kinda figured out that the washer I pointed out is for non injected. Mine IS injected. so if that's the part Travis was referring to, I don't need it.

@ Travis, if this is not what you were referring to... What were you referring too?

confuseder and confuseder.
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Grumpy wrote:
Hello

Some aftermarket clutch baskets do not have the the slots cut deep enough to allow complete seperation.
Also check the basket for nicks in the slots these will also hold the plates form seperating.

Regards


Grumpy
Thanks, but I am having the same exact issue with a completely different clutch installed as well. A clutch that is known to work perfectly in another scooter.
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Question:

Can you "adjust" the clutch cable to completely disengage the clutch? In other words force the clutch to be disengaged and slip all the time?

From my "been there done that file", I had at one time a problem like yours and it turned out to be the shaft on the the outer lever that was bunged up. The "inner lever" was no longer resting at the correct angle.
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life sucks
this wont be welcome news but ....do you have a cover and spring loaded lever unit that u can swap and test?it sounds like you have some helpfull friends.and since you have swaped the clutch out ,and eliminated that.... you r half way there ....hang in there dude! plus next time you go in there take ,and post a ton of fotos , so the guys can analyze the lube gear ,and where it sits...maybe someone il see something?
⚠️ Last edited by tailgate on UTC; edited 1 time
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I was referring to the gear cog that works as a washer. I was just asking if it was installed correctly.
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Rob98801 wrote:
Question:

Can you "adjust" the clutch cable to completely disengage the clutch? In other words force the clutch to be disengaged and slip all the time?
Yes... I think. See following.
tailgate wrote:
this wont be welcome news but ....do you have a cover and spring loaded lever unit that u can swap and test?it sounds like you have some helpfull friends....
helpful friends but unfortunately he's about 100 miles away, and wouldn't be able to help before tomorrow, when I'm scheduled to roll out of town.
TravisNJ wrote:
I was referring to the gear cog that works as a washer. I was just asking if it was installed correctly.
Thanks for clearing that up. I will double check.


OK Here's where I tell you my lack of experience and laziness may have bitten me in the ass.


First of all in testing for drag I have not actually ridden the scooter yet.

Let me explain; I have a Polini pipe that makes adjusting the cables impossible without taking off the exhaust, so I have only been testing for drag, by rolling the scooter across the floor. stupid?

When I am in neutral, the scooter rolls freely.
When I am in gear, with the lever pulled, the scooter will roll, but still feels like it's dragging a bit. I can hear shit turning. Is that normal? Am I a dumbass for being too lazy to reinstall the exhaust and ride it?

I know I should have, but in my own defense it was 1:00AM, I was pretty buzzed, and dog tired when I gave up last night.

Go ahead and call me a dumbass if you need to. I'll gladly accept if there is a chance I'm good to go.

Also, this may be a completely different problem related to the selector, which was working fine before my clutch problems began, but I am having a hard time getting it into gear. very stiff and clunky.
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you soaked the plates in gear oil, right? not 2t oil?
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Hello

You may have partially answered your question if the clutch works ok on another scoot, check your clutch operating arm at the clutch end for wear, here you only need a few thou and it would be translated as quite a bit of movement at the lever end.
Also not all of the cltches are the same I have two px200 a 97 and a 2001 and the clutches are different and one is a tight fit on the taper the other is OK one use a stover nut and a grover washer the other a tab washer and castle nut.

Best of luck.

Grumpy
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JSharpPhoto wrote:
you soaked the plates in gear oil, right? not 2t oil?
yep 30 non detergent.
Grumpy wrote:
Hello

You may have partially answered your question if the clutch works ok on another scoot, check your clutch operating arm at the clutch end for wear, here you only need a few thou and it would be translated as quite a bit of movement at the lever end.
Also not all of the cltches are the same I have two px200 a 97 and a 2001 and the clutches are different and one is a tight fit on the taper the other is OK one use a stover nut and a grover washer the other a tab washer and castle nut.

Best of luck.

Grumpy
clutch arm end shows no wear.

My clutch doesn't work and neither does the borrowed one.

it's a borrowed clutch, that works on a a friends scooter I don't know if my clutch works on the friends because he lives in another state and mailed it to me to try out. My Vespa is the only one within a 100 mile radius of where I live.

Should I assume riding it vs rolling it, shouldn't make a difference?
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Maybe you should put Your clutch on... not the cosa (unless you have the wavy washer and stover nut (metal locknut))... anyway, put you'r clutch on, pull the slack out of the arm, and tighten your cable... should have about 2mm-"ish" of play in the clutch lever. put the pipe on and see what happens.

Make sure, as others have said, you have soaked you plates in 30w gear oil. squeeze your lever a couple times, get the plates moving a bit, and kick it over.

I'm sure you have been, and not to beat the horse, but make sure not to put the woodruff key in your motor (stuff a hanky in there or something). (that's a real drag)..
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That's my plan for tonight Vader.

Anyone.

Just so I'll know:

When I'm in gear, with the lever pulled in, and I roll the scooter, should I feel a bit of resistance and hear the stuff turning, or should it be completely disengaged like it is when I am in "true neutral"?

Thanks.
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If you put a bike in gear and pull the clutch, it's always harder to push than in neutral.
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Vader19 wrote:
If you put a bike in gear and pull the clutch, it's always harder to push than in neutral.
Thanks.

Good to know. I've probably been wasting my time.

If I would have thought about it, I would have remembered that in neutral the crux is between gears. That would have saved me some time. A lot more than it would have taken to get off my ass and isntall the exhaust.

fingers crossed.
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Yes, if you're in gear and rolling the bike, with clutch lever pulled, you're still turning half the stuff in the clutch. The plates will slide past each other, but they're still rubbing slightly. It will have a little resistance.

Hojo
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I was up too late and had one too many beers. No beers until after I'm on the road again.
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Here's hoping that's all it was!

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UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
'80 P200E, '76 Primavera 125 ET3. '59 Vespa 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 6897
Location: GT, Texas
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@astromags avatar
'80 P200E, '76 Primavera 125 ET3. '59 Vespa 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 6897
Location: GT, Texas
UTC quote
TravisNJ wrote:
Astro, this is on the P200E right? I presume its the Autolube model. Is your washer on the clutch side of the crankshaft taper on correctly?
I'm looking at it now. One side is bevelled one is not. Does the bevel face the crank or the clutch?

Thanks
@jamesjohn avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
1970 Vespa Rally 180
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4145
Location: Denton Tx.
 
Ossessionato
@jamesjohn avatar
1970 Vespa Rally 180
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4145
Location: Denton Tx.
UTC quote
crank. but wait for someone to confirm.
@travisnj avatar
UTC

Primasarah
1979 P200E, 1977 Rally 200, 1974 Primavera
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3087
Location: Lake Worth, FL
 
Primasarah
@travisnj avatar
1979 P200E, 1977 Rally 200, 1974 Primavera
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3087
Location: Lake Worth, FL
UTC quote
I confirm!
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