OP
@wanderingpurist avatar
UTC

Hooked
MP3 500ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 120
Location: Los Angeles
 
Hooked
@wanderingpurist avatar
MP3 500ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 120
Location: Los Angeles
UTC quote
After catching up on the two recent (Feb) new mapping threads, both of which are still very active,

Got the new mapping update today (OP Bubba Jon Feb 15 12)


New mapping update for 500? (OP Noth Feb 25 12)

and reading NorCal Randy's stalling in mid-turn experience

New mapping update for 500? (Post 1337138)

I have to ask -

WTF?!?! (sorry but I've got smoke coming out my ears, I originally bought my MP3 500 for my daughter to ride to school. She's isn't mechnically inclined, not particularly sporty - important in terms of real time reaction time in physical situations, like riding a bike and dealing with traffic. She's not worse than 85% of the people out there, but that's my point, below - and if she encountered a stalled engine mid-turn in heavy traffic, we'd be having this conversation in the hospital, in physical rehab, or worse, at the cemetary!!!!! )

1. If there is a fairly common occurance of stalling while in "normal operation" (on the road, which assumes a fair likelihood of being in traffic) then there is also the likelihood of stalling mid-turn, which so far I can confirm NorCalRandy and I have already experienced.

Comeon, with all the talk about assuming cagers don't see you on a bike, or who drive stupidly / like a zombie and rear end you coming up to a red light or turning left in front of you;

and the outrage about the dangers of lane splitting (?!?)

and vocal positions about ATTGATT,

where's the outrage about this situation? (not for ME, per se, but this situation in general) - stalling as a recognized fuel mapping issue, which means it is possible to stall in rush hour traffic (which has happened to me, both on Wilshire Blvd at rush hour and several hundred cars tightly packed all around me, and on Sunset at rush hour, packed like sardines, luckily both in straight lines)

And now I find out the stalling is common enough to warrant a remapping algorithm update release; common enough that Bubba Jon has experienced it (so it can be "fixed" by the ECU update) and common enough for NorCal Randy and me (and who else?) to experience it mid-turn?!?

Sorry if I sound like I'm ranting (I am) but I am also seriously, seriously worried.

I would NOT now let my daughter or any other member of my family (or even friends) ride this thing until a few hundred / thousand miles are done by me with no further stalling, after if come back from VespaSO.

Mid-turn stall out: twist the throttle, nothing, figure out the engine is dead, and if not experienced or with enough intuitive presence of mind, either - drop over on the low side in a frozen panic;

straighten up and stop, hoping you don't get rear ended or otherwise run over (for sure you will get honked at and cursed at! );

grab the brakes, hard (in a panic) and drop the bike, then get run over;

or in the rare situation, have the presence of mind to GENTLY pull on the brake to release the interlock so you can start the engine WITHOUT substantially changing the dynamics of the bike in motion to avoid stopping suddenly or dropping the bike or high siding...

2. based on the experiences of many in the other threads, dealers either too often play dumb, really don't know, or don't care, or can't, address this problem.

3. Piaggio thinks this is OPTIONAL?!? (see 1 above)

4. From what Drew at VespaSO told me, Piaggio even told him NOT to do the update (a variation of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" as one of the other posters in one of the other threads wrote?) unless the customer specifically had a complaint, AND the stalling problem is actually addressed by the tilt lock ECU update, not the EFI mapping control ECU update.

?!?

What am I missing here? Am I getting a feather up my butt for no good reason? (besides the adrenaline rush of stalling out in traffic among cagers, and mid-turn, of course... NOT!)

(apologies to any ladies present, I am a bit fuming about this...)

(background again, just in case it wasn't clear -

0-600 miles: stalled four times, all at slow speeds / low RPM in traffic. Mostly stop and go, so I thought, from my karting experience, maybe I didn't know how to properly use throttle on a CVT.

Dec 2011 - Took in for break in service, informed shop of stalling problem.

Got it back, "reset the ECU" for TPS (throttle position sensor) but did not upgrade or update programming. (David even told me it is NOT a good idea to automatically reflash the ECU...let Drew figure it out)

Since Jan 2012 stalled 3 more times, once mid turn, at low speeds / low RPM

Each time I was lucky enough to have the presence of mind to restart the engine without having to come to a complete stop. LUCKILY, not because of any smarts (I'm pretty stupid and slow, actually) on my part...
@old_as_dirt avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 GTS
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22485
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@old_as_dirt avatar
2007 GTS
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22485
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
UTC quote
the new update for the remapping was not available till Jan if i remember. You had your scoot in in Dec so at that time there was not new update.

Just take the scoot in and get it done.

As far as your graphic description of locking up brakes and coming to a stop there is no need for that.
All you need to do is slightly apply the brake lever just like tapping your brake lites to make them come on, this allows the starter to be engage when hitting the starter button. you can then restart the scoot while still rolling.
OP
@wanderingpurist avatar
UTC

Hooked
MP3 500ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 120
Location: Los Angeles
 
Hooked
@wanderingpurist avatar
MP3 500ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 120
Location: Los Angeles
UTC quote
Thanks, OAD. re: restarting - I know, that's what I did.
but given some of the newbie questions (including mine!) do you think most people would have the presence of mind to just "tap" the brake lever just enough to be able to activate the start pusher, without significantly changing the dynamics of the bike in motion?

Wouldn't the natural reaction in a panic situation (not the right thing to do, of course, and one should NEVER panic, but that's what the majority of people will do, you gotta agree with me on this) be to grab a handful of brake?

(sigh - but of course if the majority of follow ups agree I am over reacting or being melodramatic - not my intention! - then I'll just have to agree to disagree.)

Thanks for the note about the update in Jan; t'would explain why it wasn't done at break in service.
old as dirt wrote:
the new update for the remapping was not available till Jan if i remember. You had your scoot in in Dec so at that time there was not new update.

Just take the scoot in and get it done.

As far as your graphic description of locking up brakes and coming to a stop there is no need for that.
All you need to do is slightly apply the brake lever just like tapping your brake lites to make them come on, this allows the starter to be engage when hitting the starter button. you can then restart the scoot while still rolling.
@old_as_dirt avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 GTS
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22485
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@old_as_dirt avatar
2007 GTS
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22485
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
UTC quote
Re: Thanks, OAD. re: restarting - I know, that's what I did.
WanderingPurist wrote:
but given some of the newbie questions (including mine!) do you think most people would have the presence of mind to just "tap" the brake lever just enough to be able to activate the start pusher, without significantly changing the dynamics of the bike in motion?

Wouldn't the natural reaction in a panic situation (not the right thing to do, of course, and one should NEVER panic, but that's what the majority of people will do, you gotta agree with me on this) be to grab a handful of brake?

(sigh - but of course if the majority of follow ups agree I am over reacting or being melodramatic - not my intention! - then I'll just have to agree to disagree.)

Thanks for the note about the update in Jan; t'would explain why it wasn't done at break in service.
old as dirt wrote:
the new update for the remapping was not available till Jan if i remember. You had your scoot in in Dec so at that time there was not new update.

Just take the scoot in and get it done.

As far as your graphic description of locking up brakes and coming to a stop there is no need for that.
All you need to do is slightly apply the brake lever just like tapping your brake lites to make them come on, this allows the starter to be engage when hitting the starter button. you can then restart the scoot while still rolling.
first thing I have ever taught anyone when riding stay clam and in control, same thing when I was a MSF instructor.
Panic can only lead to bad things period. no matter what your doing not just riding scoots and m/c's. Ask any emt when they pull up to a site of mangled mess. they cannot panic they must stay in control. Same with any police officer, if they panic in situations they could get killed themselves.
@noth avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Burgman 650 (May, 2012) MP3 500 (11/2009 - 5.2012)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1385
Location: Massachusetts- Boston South Shore
 
Molto Verboso
@noth avatar
Burgman 650 (May, 2012) MP3 500 (11/2009 - 5.2012)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1385
Location: Massachusetts- Boston South Shore
UTC quote
I was "new" 2 years ago. Never ridden and mine stalled at low RPM like twice.. Once turning into my driveway and the other in downtown Plymouth in heavy stop & go traffic as it is always jammed with tourists looking at Plymouth Rock.. Both times I coasted to safety and started it back up.. I figured that it was the ECU learning and it hasn't happened again for over 2 years.. I agree with OAD.. any mechanical instrument has potential issues and one has to plan for something and not panic..nothing is ever perfect..(ask me about the boat delivery I did when I was 35 miles off shore and the fittings fell off the mast in 20 Kn wind.. !! another story for another time..)

Easier said by me than by your daughter.. but as she gets experience she will become more able to deal with things.. I don't know her, so she is probably capable now.. Very legitimate concerns and I would get it in for the update just like I will as soon as possible..
@old_as_dirt avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 GTS
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22485
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@old_as_dirt avatar
2007 GTS
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22485
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
UTC quote
folks see the other thread on this same subject and follow the link

New mapping update for 500?

file a complaint . if enough do there will be a recall and or investigation.
@jimc avatar
UTC

Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 43717
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
 
Moderaptor
@jimc avatar
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 43717
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
UTC quote
I can't make my way through the multitude of quoted material, sorry. It has stopped me from reading back throught the whole thread - counterproductive.

I did spot the dreaded phase 'reset TPS'. A no-no unless there's a new throttle body (expensive, you'd notice). Spelled out in BOLD in all Piaggio EFI model manuals.

Please state again in a short post - is this a used bike or a new one? If new a TPS reset might be appropriate (unlikely) - if used with even a first-service miles on it's a no-no, the problem is far more likely to be down to the throttle idle bypass air passage being clogged or just dirty, or injector gumming, especially if the bike's had E10 fuel in it that's sat for a few weeks.
OP
@wanderingpurist avatar
UTC

Hooked
MP3 500ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 120
Location: Los Angeles
 
Hooked
@wanderingpurist avatar
MP3 500ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 120
Location: Los Angeles
UTC quote
as simply as possible
Bought new

Stalled three times in stop and go traffic

Went in for 600 mile first service; stalling mentioned


"TPS reset" what else or exactly what was done? I don't know, I wasn't standing there watching.

600 to 1500 miles - stalled again similar circumstances 3 times, one of these times mid-turn

Bike run at least once a week, usually more

"Top tier" gas only (in US, that means Chevron, Shell, 76, Mobile et al)

Bought and serviced from and by Piaggio AD
jimc wrote:
I can't make my way through the multitude of quoted material, sorry. It has stopped me from reading back throught the whole thread - counterproductive.

I did spot the dreaded phase 'reset TPS'. A no-no unless there's a new throttle body (expensive, you'd notice). Spelled out in BOLD in all Piaggio EFI model manuals.

Please state again in a short post - is this a used bike or a new one? If new a TPS reset might be appropriate (unlikely) - if used with even a first-service miles on it's a no-no, the problem is far more likely to be down to the throttle idle bypass air passage being clogged or just dirty, or injector gumming, especially if the bike's had E10 fuel in it that's sat for a few weeks.
@jimc avatar
UTC

Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 43717
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
 
Moderaptor
@jimc avatar
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 43717
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
UTC quote
When did you last ask for a re-map? It's only been available in the US for a few weeks.

Getting heated about these things is a natural (and very understandable) reaction, but doesn't help logical diagnosis, honest.

No shop can tell if your bike needs a re-map until they hook it up to the diagnostic thingie and then get good internet contact with Piaggio. At that stage it'll work out if you need an update or not.

Get hooked up.
@trirol1 avatar
UTC

Addicted
MP3 500
Joined: UTC
Posts: 857
Location: Plano, Texas
 
Addicted
@trirol1 avatar
MP3 500
Joined: UTC
Posts: 857
Location: Plano, Texas
UTC quote
According to Piaggio USA the new mapping was released December 2011
UTC

Ossessionato
Scarabeo 500GT(hers), `07 250 MP3, `09 400 MP3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2592
Location: Kingman, Az.
 
Ossessionato
Scarabeo 500GT(hers), `07 250 MP3, `09 400 MP3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2592
Location: Kingman, Az.
UTC quote
I don't think you're over reacting at all, Purist. I've been riding MCs for 47 years and have never had anything like this happen before. When it does to me it IS a dangerous situation for me !! There's no warning when it happens intermittenly. My `07 250 MP3 doesn't do this at all.
UTC

Lurker
2009 Piaggio MP3 500ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2
Location: Lakeland, FL
 
Lurker
2009 Piaggio MP3 500ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2
Location: Lakeland, FL
UTC quote
Stalling and/or erratic idle or low rpm's
I can attribute those symptoms to a BAD batch of 93 octane Gasoline from a CITGO Gas Station. At first, I was thinking maybe the hot weather and/or Vapor lock in the Fuel Lines might be a concern or a really dirty air filter, I vented the Fuel Cap, but after a few more stalls and noticing the Engine wasn't overheating (only 1 mark over midline) and the erratic idle and/or low rpm's were the result of coming to quick Stop and Go in City traffic conditions, where you come to a stop and the engine just wants to stall and die, WAS the result of BAD Gasoline, It didn't happen at Faster or Higher speeds above 25 MPH, so I rode it until I got the Reserve Refuel Light, Refueled at a Shell Gas Station and it runs perfectly now. Lesson learned, DON'T gas up at a CITGO Gas Station, maybe they had some water and/or bad sediment in their tanks, or whatever.
@old_as_dirt avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 GTS
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22485
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@old_as_dirt avatar
2007 GTS
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22485
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
UTC quote
Re: Stalling and/or erratic idle or low rpm's
Ronjobi wrote:
I can attribute those symptoms to a BAD batch of 93 octane Gasoline from a CITGO Gas Station. At first, I was thinking maybe the hot weather and/or Vapor lock in the Fuel Lines might be a concern or a really dirty air filter, I vented the Fuel Cap, but after a few more stalls and noticing the Engine wasn't overheating (only 1 mark over midline) and the erratic idle and/or low rpm's were the result of coming to quick Stop and Go in City traffic conditions, where you come to a stop and the engine just wants to stall and die, WAS the result of BAD Gasoline, It didn't happen at Faster or Higher speeds above 25 MPH, so I rode it until I got the Reserve Refuel Light, Refueled at a Shell Gas Station and it runs perfectly now. Lesson learned, DON'T gas up at a CITGO Gas Station, maybe they had some water and/or bad sediment in their tanks, or whatever.
I won't use that Citgo either, hate to give profits to the owner of them.
UTC

Hooked
Gilera Fuoco
Joined: UTC
Posts: 140
Location: london uk
 
Hooked
Gilera Fuoco
Joined: UTC
Posts: 140
Location: london uk
UTC quote
jimc wrote:
I can't make my way through the multitude of quoted material, sorry. It has stopped me from reading back throught the whole thread - counterproductive.

I did spot the dreaded phase 'reset TPS'. A no-no unless there's a new throttle body (expensive, you'd notice). Spelled out in BOLD in all Piaggio EFI model manuals.

Please state again in a short post - is this a used bike or a new one? If new a TPS reset might be appropriate (unlikely) - if used with even a first-service miles on it's a no-no, the problem is far more likely to be down to the throttle idle bypass air passage being clogged or just dirty, or injector gumming, especially if the bike's had E10 fuel in it that's sat for a few weeks.
JIM wats the best option for me as mines stalking like 5 times a week is it a job I can do or best for CBS in Whitton to diagnose (I saw u sneaking into sainsburys last week BTW I wasn't stalking u honest
@jimc avatar
UTC

Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 43717
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
 
Moderaptor
@jimc avatar
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 43717
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
UTC quote
I'd definitely take it into CBS, even if it's just to get their opinion. Neil might well have some immediate solution.
@g03 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
MP3 500 08
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1560
Location: Toms River area, New Jersey
 
Molto Verboso
@g03 avatar
MP3 500 08
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1560
Location: Toms River area, New Jersey
UTC quote
My experiences, first two times pulling out on a highway ! Once in front of a tanker truck ! Good thing I am safety concerned and had enough room to pull off highway; better yet I had the chance too! Believe my issues were a combination of over oiled air filter/ erratic kill switch. Cleaned up filter, and wiggle kill switch a few times; failed twice in the following year at highway speeds. These times, it started right up, but pulled off roadway. flipped the kill switch and no more stalling since. But do flip the kill switch once in awhile. Fear of pulling out in front of any fast moving traffic with no "safety way out", always present; and always tried to leave a lot of lead time when pulling out. 11,000 miles so far. No stalls since 6000 miles, if my memory serves me. Until some person gets killed, and a class action suit is started, it is what it is.
UTC

Hooked
MP3 400
Joined: UTC
Posts: 287
Location: Chicago, IL
 
Hooked
MP3 400
Joined: UTC
Posts: 287
Location: Chicago, IL
UTC quote
EVAP
It could be overfilling the gas tank and then having it automatically quit on you on a turn. Happened to me many times until I went to the forum and now I never top off the gas and it went away. Hope it is a simple fix for you, I know it made me wonder...
UTC

Hooked
MP3 400
Joined: UTC
Posts: 287
Location: Chicago, IL
 
Hooked
MP3 400
Joined: UTC
Posts: 287
Location: Chicago, IL
UTC quote
no inforomation
I and several others have asked if this update is just for the 500 model or is does it apply to other engine sizes or models like the MP3 400. You would think a good dealer would notify you to bring it in, or Vespa could simply post a note here..... If they want referrals or repeat business across models or brands, then they would let owners know.....
@heinlein avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
MP3 500, Ducati ST4s, Honda Silver Wing
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2649
Location: Roseburg, OR
 
Ossessionato
@heinlein avatar
MP3 500, Ducati ST4s, Honda Silver Wing
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2649
Location: Roseburg, OR
UTC quote
Re: no inforomation
FredChiTown wrote:
I and several others have asked if this update is just for the 500 model or is does it apply to other engine sizes or models like the MP3 400. You would think a good dealer would notify you to bring it in, or Vespa could simply post a note here..... If they want referrals or repeat business across models or brands, then they would let owners know.....
You were answered by both Fuzzy and OAD here. New mapping update for 500? (Post 1337427)
@stickyfrog avatar
UTC

Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22659
Location: Nashville, Indiana
 
Moderatus Rana
@stickyfrog avatar
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22659
Location: Nashville, Indiana
UTC quote
A day or two after I got the 500 (3600 miles or so) with a warmed engine I had a momentary loss of power while accelerating through a traffic light. I assumed that it was either bad gas or a dirty air filter. Fresh gas and a clean air filter and it has never happened again.

But recently it has stalled twice at the end of my road when I am slowing (engine breaking) for a stop sign. Engine not yet up to temp. Recently cleaned the air filter. Engine cuts out but restarts immediately.
@co0lmint avatar
UTC

Hooked
MP3 500
Joined: UTC
Posts: 138
Location: Gilroy, California
 
Hooked
@co0lmint avatar
MP3 500
Joined: UTC
Posts: 138
Location: Gilroy, California
UTC quote
Personally I've never had this problem and I'm almost at 13k. Only time
it's ever stalled is because of low oil or oil pressure. Starts right back up,
but it was a annoyance. Now check the oil every week along w/ air
pressure. I almost stalled once I got the Dr.Pulley sliders put in. Seems
the higher rpms coupled with a sudden stop makes it want to bog out.
It didn't, but it dipped into 1k rpm or below for a moment and I thought
for sure it was going to stall. Find that just letting the engine breaking and
light application of brakes nullified this for the most part. Still dropped lower than normal at times. Of course we can't always just coast and gently
brake to a stop. Going to get my update wednesday for sure.
UTC

Hooked
Gilera Fuoco
Joined: UTC
Posts: 140
Location: london uk
 
Hooked
Gilera Fuoco
Joined: UTC
Posts: 140
Location: london uk
UTC quote
jimc wrote:
I'd definitely take it into CBS, even if it's just to get their opinion. Neil might well have some immediate solution.
Cheers jim
DoubleGood Design banner

Modern Vespa is the premier site for modern Vespa and Piaggio scooters. Vespa GTS300, GTS250, GTV, GT200, LX150, LXS, ET4, ET2, MP3, Fuoco, Elettrica and more.

Buy Me A Coffee
 

Shop on Amazon with Modern Vespa

Modern Vespa is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to amazon.com


All Content Copyright 2005-2024 by Modern Vespa.
All Rights Reserved.


[ Time: 0.0341s ][ Queries: 6 (0.0176s) ][ live ][ 313 ][ ThingOne ]