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@rodri9o avatar
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So last night I decided to remove my head/cylinder/piston, etc. The bike has not been able to go past 50 mph so I am getting desperate! Crying or Very sad emoticon Let me know what you guys think. This evening I'm planning on putting it all back together clean and starting a thorough cleaning of the carb in an attempt to eliminate possible reasons for not getting past 50...

I installed this top end a few weeks ago and have been riding it, adjusting timing closer o the 'A', and running 3% during run in.

Here are the pictures from last night:

Pulled the head, this is what it looked like. Is it normal to be all dark and sooty in there?
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Cylinder and piston on the bike. The Cylinder looks to be fine from here but the piston already has a layer of soot/carbon on the dome...no thanks to 3% I'm sure.
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

The barrel still shows the cross-hatch marks as it should:
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

There is this ring of soot on the very top where the rings do not get to touch during the normal stroke...normal?
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Four shots of the piston. Once I pulled everything off I cleaned and installed the rings in the barrel to measure the ring gap. The piston has these little pins in the groove of the ring seat so the ring gap ends are cut for to almost mate to that pin. Even so, I placed the ring in the barrel, slid the piston in to make sure the rings were square and measured the ring gap: .080+mm. I thought it was supposed to be 0.040mm max. Am I losing compression from this??
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Cleaned off the piston:
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Cleaned off the head:
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

I'll be getting some new nuts and washers for the head this afternoon. Are the studs that hold the barrel and head in place hard to find in a regular hardware/autoparts supply?

Thanks!
@jsharpphoto avatar
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Molto Verboso
1974 Vespa Sprint Veloce, 1963 VBB 180 Custom
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@jsharpphoto avatar
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You can't find cylinder studs at the hardware store. They're pretty cheap from most scooter shops, and aren't bulky, so you might be able to get a break on shipping if that's all you order.

Just make sure to get the P200 ones instead of the 150 version.
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JSharpPhoto wrote:
You can't find cylinder studs at the hardware store. They're pretty cheap from most scooter shops, and aren't bulky, so you might be able to get a break on shipping if that's all you order.

Just make sure to get the P200 ones instead of the 150 version.
Yeah...I was trying to save the time on shipping. I went to a few motor rebuilding places and Fastenall here by me and none of them wanted anything to do with it. I hate getting that "Dis Metric?". Fastenall would make them for me, but it wold cost about $50 Wha? emoticon Laughing emoticon Laughing emoticon Laughing emoticon
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Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
1974 Vespa Sprint Veloce, 1963 VBB 180 Custom
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@jsharpphoto avatar
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http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Hardware/S-00553

you need 4.

or, call scootersoriginalli and go pick them up. But with NY traffic, it might be faster to order them from Georgia.
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So...you guys think everything looks normal with 400 miles on run-in?
I'm asking because all of this 2T goodness is all new to me.
JSharpPhoto wrote:
http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Hardware/S-00553

you need 4.

or, call scootersoriginalli and go pick them up. But with NY traffic, it might be faster to order them from Georgia.
We have the HOV lanes now, and with my blow-up doll, I can get to S-O in about 1H-40. Nerd emoticon Laughing emoticon Laughing emoticon
Seriously though, it can be such a drag getting places sometimes with all of the traffic congestion.
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The appearance of the piston and cyl as regards carbonization is normal. I see virtually no wear on the cyl, no scuffing on the rings. Normal at 400 miles.
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Hooked
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Quote:
in an attempt to eliminate possible reasons for not getting past 50
Hi, i'm NOT trying to be smartass here (and I haven't followed your whole saga), but...
Have you eliminated the speedometer as a possible reason? They're notorious for under-reporting at high speed. Mine (US model p200) never gets much higher than 50 either, but I can keep up on roads where I know the traffic speed is between 55 and 65.[/quote]
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jwilliams wrote:
The appearance of the piston and cyl as regards carbonization is normal. I see virtually no wear on the cyl, no scuffing on the rings. Normal at 400 miles.
What about those dark spots on the piston wall by the piston ring pin? I'm glad it all look normal. I am also relieved that I installed the piston with the exhaust port pointing to the proper direction: something I began to doubt with all this insanity.
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tomj wrote:
Hi, i'm NOT trying to be smartass here (and I haven't followed your whole saga), but...
Have you eliminated the speedometer as a possible reason? They're notorious for under-reporting at high speed. Mine (US model p200) never gets much higher than 50 either, but I can keep up on roads where I know the traffic speed is between 55 and 65.
No smart-ass-ed-ness taken. I will GPS this mo-fo once I get it running again. Clown emoticon
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Primasarah
1979 P200E, 1977 Rally 200, 1974 Primavera
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I thought you were using GPS the entire time...

You can't go by the speedometer.
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Manual says to pull and de-coke the head and piston every 3000 miles.

Doubt anyone does it, but it indicates that carbon would be expected with normal operation.
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Molto Verboso
1974 Vespa Sprint Veloce, 1963 VBB 180 Custom
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UTC quote
rgconner wrote:
Manual says to pull and de-coke the head and piston every 3000 miles.

Doubt anyone does it, but it indicates that carbon would be expected with normal operation.
I think that practice was based on using much lower quality petrol then we have now.
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TravisNJ wrote:
I thought you were using GPS the entire time...

You can't go by the speedometer.
nope...meant to before every ride, but kept forgetting. Must be all the fumes I inhaled during the rebuild: gas, ether, starter fluid, diesel, 30wt oil....all the good stuff!

But the speedo hit 110 and 115 kph when I first got her, so now it not passing 85 kph (52mph) would mean there's a problem somewhere. I never replaced the gear, just the cable.
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JSharpPhoto wrote:
rgconner wrote:
Manual says to pull and de-coke the head and piston every 3000 miles.

Doubt anyone does it, but it indicates that carbon would be expected with normal operation.
I think that practice was based on using much lower quality petrol then we have now.
Would running 3% Motul Ether-based 2T make it get like that faster?
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rodri9o wrote:
JSharpPhoto wrote:
rgconner wrote:
Manual says to pull and de-coke the head and piston every 3000 miles.

Doubt anyone does it, but it indicates that carbon would be expected with normal operation.
I think that practice was based on using much lower quality petrol then we have now.
Would running 3% Motul Ether-based 2T make it get like that faster?
Only if that is the wrong mix rate. Excess oil might not get burned off fast enough if the engine is not up to full operating temperature, such as on a short ride.
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Only 2 hours until I pull the carburettor apart and the pull the tank and clean out all the crap (if any) in there.
rgconner wrote:
Only if that is the wrong mix rate. Excess oil might not get burned off fast enough if the engine is not up to full operating temperature, such as on a short ride.
Yeah, the mix was a bit heavy, but I had been using 2% the last 2 tanks.
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Have you done a compression test? If you have a buddy with another p200 you can try depressing the kickstart lever on each one and see how much resistance there is as a quick test.

Also how do your plugs look? Overly rich or overly lean conditions can affect performance.
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zeno wrote:
Have you done a compression test? If you have a buddy with another p200 you can try depressing the kickstart lever on each one and see how much resistance there is as a quick test.

Also how do your plugs look? Overly rich or overly lean conditions can affect performance.
Don't know anyone with a 200, unfortunately. Have not yet done a compression test, but it is a new piston/rings/cylinder. I will re-check the ring end gap..I was following the specs on vespamaintenance.com but I think the gap spec for a P200 is different than a PX200. Different plugs as well.

As far as my plug, it looked ok...light brown.
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all models have the same ring end gap 0.2-0.35mm

i suggest you pick up the Haynes manual. and anyone else reading this post that does not have a copy yet. lotta good info in there.

edit: oh snap! i quoted the Blue Haynes for the vintage models, P2 info would be in the Red.
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jamesjohn wrote:
all models have the same ring end gap 0.2-0.35mm

i suggest you pick up the Haynes manual. and anyone else reading this post that does not have a copy yet. lotta good info in there.

edit: oh snap! i quoted the Blue Haynes for the vintage models, P2 info would be in the Red.
Got one!
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Many autoparts stores (Autozone, PepBoys, etc.) will loan tools. You leave a deposit (usually equal to the purchase price), that is refunded upon return of the tool. Go get yourself a compression tester.
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starreem wrote:
Many autoparts stores (Autozone, PepBoys, etc.) will loan tools. You leave a deposit (usually equal to the purchase price), that is refunded upon return of the tool. Go get yourself a compression tester.
I have a compression tester and the last time I checked compression, after the seize, it was right up there with the stock numbers if I recall properly.

WOT and three kicks, correct?
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Molto Verboso
Footsie?
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Doesnt look normal to me. It looks like you had a leak at the head as shown in your first two photos.

You have obvious oil deposits on the mating surface of the head, and leaks out to the lower left stud hole. On the cylinder you have similar oil deposits on the mating surface, and oil stains on the cyl face coming from the corresponding cylinder stud.

Before you reassemble, make sure your mating surfaces are flat and not warped. Use a little Hylomar on the mating surfaces. Tighten down the head in an x pattern no more than a quarter turn at a time per nut, and use a torque wrench to get it right. After a good head cycle, retorque the head.
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*heat cycle
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Molto Verboso
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jamesjohn wrote:
*heat cycle


Damn touchscreen keyboards....
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Molto Verboso
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Also looks like you got a score near your exhaust port - looks like you caught a ring there.
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Molto Verboso
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jamesjohn wrote:
*heat cycle


Damn touchscreen keyboards....
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