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AKP wrote:
Edit: Sigh, negative karma just because I put my side of things across and don't agree with the majority? Seriously guys, come on.
It's not unusual around here, sometimes.
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MikeO wrote:
Along the same lines: I can't open a Paypal account, although my Billing Address and Delivery Address are always the same, because my Bank Accounts are in a different country from where I live, albeit in the EU.

The same applies sometimes when I try to use my Credit Card on line; the payment is refused by the vendor although my Bank, one of the biggest and most secure international ones, has 'put' the money aside for the transaction.

It's infuriating.
Mike-

We have a PayPal account linked to a credit card issued in the US with a US billing address for PayPal and the credit card. We have several "approved" shipping addresses registered with PayPal and the credit card issuer, both in the US and Greece. Easy peasy.

We also have the US issued card I used with SIP with billing address in Greece. Never a problem.

I try not to "mix and match", and use the US billing card for orders that ship to the US (gifts for family, etc) and the Greek billing address card for use in Europe. That's what I did in this case.

On rare occasions, one or the other credit card issuer will alert me to a charge and use their verification methods with me before they honor it. The card issuer not the vendor would do the verification.

Until this specific order and vendor. Obviously, they found other suitable means than my passport to verify the order to their satisfaction.
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AKP wrote:
Sigh, negative karma just because I put my side of things across and don't agree with the majority?
ah. A self-identifying victim.

Well, then: here's an apt quote for ye -
AKP wrote:
Just get over yourself...
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Ok, guys, lay off sniping at each other. The parts have shipped, I didn't have to send scans of the materials I objected to sending and the weather is nice here.

SIP gets their money and I get my parts.

Life is GOOD!!!!
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Amen to that Clap emoticon
Glad it all worked out.
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Aviator47 wrote:
Ok, guys, lay off sniping at each other. The parts have shipped, I didn't have to send scans of the materials I objected to sending and the weather is nice here.

SIP gets their money and I get my parts.

Life is GOOD!!!!
Figured they'd go that route. I doubted that they'd cancel an order and lose out on potential profit.

p.s. First rule of Karma is not talking about Karma.
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Aviator47 wrote:
Ok, guys, lay off sniping at each other.
mea maxima culpa
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This is not a snipe at shot at anyone. Credit Card Fraud and 'security' is a rampant problem in online retail, and there are 'truths' that the general populace does not understand.

First and foremost, the Credit Card companies do not actually give a damned about fraud or security, despite all of their misguided efforts towards security. It's all a crock. The Credit Card companies don't care about those because they don't end up eating the costs, it's the retail vendors and insurance companies that eat those costs. All of the credit card processing contracts are extremely lopsided and favor the CC vendors and their appointed clearing houses.

Second, there is no information in a mag stripe or credit card that can reliably be used to identify the owner, beyond CC Number, Expiration, Name and Billing postal code. That's it. Obtaining valid CC#'s and enough information to make fraudulent charges is so trivial, that you don't need much more than google and a little willingness to engage in fraud. Yes, it is that easy, and that rampant.

In order to really cause some damage and really steal, obtaining identities is the real holy grail of the fraudsters. In order to go there, the fraudster would need a bit more information. Current billing address, date of birth, SSN or Passport, or Copy of a Birth Certificate. With that information, it becomes fairly easy to then apply for, and obtain legal credit cards in the name of another identity, run up massive charges and then lay it all on the person whose identity has just been stolen.

This is why phishing attacks are so wildly popular. You have all seen them, emails that look like bank emails that link you to a site that 'doesn't work' but gets your login, CC# name and address and other pertinent information.

Keep all of this in mind, because if you look at Aviator's original post, you will see that the materials being asked for provided all of the corroborating information required to steal an identity.

Speaking as someone that has seen both sides of this particular fence, there no 'principle' in protecting ones id from theft, only prudence. SIP had the right to refuse the order and walk away, but they deserved to be called out for asking for the information, particularly to be delivered in such an easily comprisable format.

While their website is in fact secured (well, it is SSL encrypted, that does not mean that the data is secure, just that the on the wire transmission is encrypted), looking at the site and it's public infrastructure, I do not believe that the back end data is truly 'secure', it appears to meet basic security standards, but it also appears to have a couple of viable vectors of attack. But that is neither here, nor there.

Email is not a secure protocol.

Let me rephrase that last item in case it wasn't clear.

If you want to communicate anything securely, email should NEVER be your go to tool. The only way to 'secure' email as it exists is using private public key encryption with both parties purchasing, and exchanging 'keys' prior to the secure message, and that message must then be signed and encrypted by both parties. Even then, about half the email clients that support this model will still send a PLAIN TEXT version of the encrypted message.

You see, email is at it's heart just text sent entirely in the clear and 'relayed' across the internet. In short 'secure' email doesn't exist, so let's assume that we implicitly trust a vendor asking us for the information, sending it via email should be a huge no-no.

Believe me, I've had this discussion with law offices, courts, and accountants, and I am writing this here for the same reason. Almost no one understands just how absurdly insecure email is.

Finally, understand that the retail vendors are completely stuck in the middle here. The customers want to be protected and the CC companies play 'security theater' games with them to make them feel 'protected', then they oblige the retailers to use operate under these one-sided contracts where when fraud happens, the Retailer's not only eat the costs of the merchandise, they also get charged fees, and often then get slapped with higher per transaction fees and occasionally punitive damages from the clearing houses on behalf of the credit card companies.

Don't like it? work with the vendors to cut the CC companies out of the loop. Nothing will change until the population, en masse abandons the CC companies and tells them collectively to piss off.

end rant.
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Thank you for writing that out! There are a lot of misconceptions about the safety of credit cards and personal information.

We get so frustrated having to sort out good orders from fraudulent orders. We've had 100% success in doing so over the last couple years, but we waste way too much time researching them.
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redhandmoto wrote:
AKP wrote:
Sigh, negative karma just because I put my side of things across and don't agree with the majority?
ah. A self-identifying victim.

Well, then: here's an apt quote for ye -
AKP wrote:
Just get over yourself...
Well played, sir. Clap emoticon
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Motorsport Scooters wrote:
We get so frustrated having to sort out good orders from fraudulent orders. We've had 100% success in doing so over the last couple years, but we waste way too much time researching them.
Not too mention the money and good-will costs, but you have no choice but to comply with the outrageous and utterly bullshit 'PCI Compliance' crapola, and it is 100% the CC companies fault. There ARE solutions to the security, but they are unwilling to implement them, because those solutions cut into the obscene profits CC vendors are making.
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dru_

I will take issue that all the issuers do not care. USAA has a variety of safeguards in place to protect their members, since credit card theft can be an indicator of other issues. Thus USAA is quite proactive when they detect "suspicious activity". For example, card thieves in the Greek islands have been known to use stolen cards to buy ferry tickets (6-8 tickets at a time, worth 45 - 60 Euro each) to resell at a discount for cash. When I bought 5 tickets for family travel, USAA send a "check ID" message to the ferry ticket office's swipe terminal. I later received an e-mail from them as a double check. I called, and they told me that getting a 200+ Euro charge from a ticket office (they are everywhere here) was a "flag", and thus the "check ID", as well as an account "alert" message. We discussed that we take ferries frequently, and at my request, they took that specific marker off our account.

Vendors can get more than postal code verification. They can enter billing address street name or number if they wish to subscribe to that.

I know that credit card fraud falls on the backs of the vendors, but there are tools they can subscribe to to reduce their vulnerability. Unfortunately, it's not fool proof. If a vendor smells a rat, he can always turn down a customer.
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I think this thread has run it's course so here is a picture of a cute puppy.

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
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Aviator47 wrote:
dru_

I will take issue that all the issuers do not care. USAA has a variety of safeguards in place to protect their members, since credit card theft can be an indicator of other issues. Thus USAA is quite proactive when they detect "suspicious activity". For example, card thieves in the Greek islands have been known to use stolen cards to buy ferry tickets (6-8 tickets at a time, worth 45 - 60 Euro each) to resell at a discount for cash. When I bought 5 tickets for family travel, USAA send a "check ID" message to the ferry ticket office's swipe terminal. I later received an e-mail from them as a double check. I called, and they told me that getting a 200+ Euro charge from a ticket office (they are everywhere here) was a "flag", and thus the "check ID", as well as an account "alert" message. We discussed that we take ferries frequently, and at my request, they took that specific marker off our account.

Vendors can get more than postal code verification. They can enter billing address street name or number if they wish to subscribe to that.

I know that credit card fraud falls on the backs of the vendors, but there are tools they can subscribe to to reduce their vulnerability. Unfortunately, it's not fool proof. If a vendor smells a rat, he can always turn down a customer.
Feel free to take issue, but understand this, you are being sold a bill of goods. That 'proactive' call is part of the security theater I referenced. These additional services you mention? guess who bears the costs of those services? The retailers.

Consider this, a 'great' deal for the Retailer is a 1.5% per transaction fee on charges. Let's assume that the retailer is operating on a 'reasonable' margin of around 25% average ( yes I know 50%, that's a number historic reference, I do not know of many hard goods operations operating anywhere near that margin, and fewer internet retailers so let's just go with 25% ). Generally the bigger the ticket, the lower the margin.

Add those 'additional' services, and that fee floats up to 4.5-6%. Let's say you get a ding on your PCI compliance crap, now your base is 6% and your 'fees' are up at 9.5-12%.

And guess what, those additional services really don't combat the core problem. There needs to be two factor authentication to identify a card and a cardholder.

Rolling keys as an option with real time authentication for internet purchases is one solution. When you get your card, you get a small device that provides you a rolling 8 digit authentication code. when you provide your CC# online, you provide that rolling code with it, and the retailer can real time authenticate that card and that code within it's valid window (say 15 minutes).

Rolling Card #'s with an electronic rolling passcode would be another option.

The key being, the card issuers have the tools in hand to issue multipart identification methods that do not, at any level expose your personal identification, and require physical access at the point of purchase. For the physical cards, they are ALREADY doing this in select instances with the electronic chip cards, but are making no efforts in the online world. They do keep selling the bill of goods.
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I suppose I should provide some background on myself. I am by trade a techie, and small business owner. For the last 15 years I have been providing software and computer consulting services to bankruptcy trustees as well as many local small businesses, most of them are subjected to the credit card companies. For about 5 years, I did system and site security analysis. I have had to deal first hand with both sides of the credit industry, from the bankruptcy side, and the retail side.

I know my statements come off pretty harsh, but these are companies that for the most part are the definition of predatory lending, and they are quite happy screwing everyone around them so long as they are getting paid. Watching their antics in the bankruptcy realm over the last 15 years has left me with a very jaded view to everything that they say publicly. They lobbied for, funded, and largely wrote the "bankruptcy" reform of 2006, specifically to increase how much they got when their lending practices helped you into insolvency.

While there are people in the credit industry that care, the industry as a whole, does not care about doing security right, they care about maximizing profits and the or image. That is about it.
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AKP wrote:
I think this thread has run it's course so here is a picture of a cute puppy.

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External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Bulldog puppies are not amused.
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Travis.. I had you pegged more as a Mr. Winkle guy
If you haven't had the pleasure look him up.
I'm sorry to have added, I think were all dumber as a result.. D'oh
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I see SIP's request this way: "SIP is not sure if you are who you say you are and we can't be bothered checking the usual way by matching billing and shipping address. So please, instead of SIP being possibly exposed to fraud, send us documents that will surely expose you to even worse fraud." This ridiculous request is egregiously offensive, especially when USAA Bank validated the information and accepted the charge.
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dru_

Realizing that there is no horse so dead it can't be beaten one more time:

There are five players in a credit card transaction: Card holder, merchant, card processing bank (or service), Card Clearing Organization (MC, Visa, Discover) and the issuing bank.

The issuing bank does not set fees to retailers, but simply collects set rates on transactions from the Card Clearing Organization. Any additional security an issuing bank provides is at their own expense. BTW, if a card holder defaults on his bill, the issuing bank, and only the issuing bank, takes the direct loss.

My family was in the retail business from 1909 until 1990. I can assure you that the cost of credit cards is significantly lower than offering "in-house" credit and monthly billing, and carries much lower risk. When a customer couldn't pay his bill to one of our stores, we ate that - all of it. When a credit card holder defaults (typically 4-5% industry wide, but as high as 10% during the past couple of years), the issuing bank eats it. The issuing banks do not set the rates charged to the merchant, the Card Clearing Organization and processing banks (services) do.

Fees paid by merchants to their card processor are included in the cost of business, just like utilities and toilet paper. If you want to be a web based retailer, you pay the fees associated with that, and include processing fees before you establish "margin", as it's a variable cost and should be figured in the cost of goods sold, just like you include the cost of goods being delivered to your premises, as well as a "budgeted" allowance for losses, such as fraud and damages to inventory. The cost, if the merchant has any business sense, is passed on to the customer in the final price. I encourage merchants to be fraud conscious, as it helps keep the price down.

I know the risk faced by merchants for accepting a fraudulent transaction. My point from the very beginning was that the method of "verifying" my authority to use the given card was out of line. If the merchant is not paying for billing address verification (a very simple and automatic procedure in web based card processing software), not my problem. As I informed the rep, my issuing bank (which is not a processing bank) has customer service reps available, at no additional cost to the merchant, that can be contacted. For my benefit, not just "security theater".
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Well, given the current relationship between Greece and Germany, I could see where they are asking to provide proof you have the money.. (just kidding) Clown emoticon

Firstly, I'm surprised you even received reasonable customer service from SIP, in general Germany and Customer Service don't really go hand-in-hand, as I have only had problems dealing with SIP. Oh, and don't ever talk to P#&er by the way, I told him during a phone conversation that I was "very disappointed in their customer service and will take my business elsewhere" and he replied "well, that's your opinion (in german accent)". Awesome.

But at least you were able to get this squared away. Germany has some real security issues especially regarding credit institutions and banks. They are just now starting to push online banking and my bank here in Germany always requires me input a code sent to my mobile phone for every transaction I would like to make via online in order to verify it. It can be very bothersome.

I'm glad you were able to get your problem resolved though, I just refuse to send any of that information over the web. I recently had an airline request that information from me (the first time ever) and it was from a cheap air travel website and I was for certain it was a scam. Turns out it seems to be a trend here in Germany, I hope it can somehow be resolved soon since I will never be willing to provide that kind of private information via such a shark-infested world wide-(open) web.
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Chris

For travel to the US, a passport number needs to be input into your passenger record before the flight departs to meet US TSA requirements. The gate agents and counter agents for most cheapo airlines cannot alter or make additions to a passenger record. (The less skill the job requires, the lower the pay. Some of that cost savings is passed on to the passenger. ) Thus, the no-frills companies often get that info when you make the booking rather than when you check in.
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Aviator47 wrote:
Ok, guys, lay off sniping at each other. The parts have shipped, I didn't have to send scans of the materials I objected to sending and the weather is nice here.

SIP gets their money and I get my parts.

Life is GOOD!!!!
Aviator, I hope you enjoy the new exhaust. I know I do. It's a great piece of kit and I'm sure all of this will have been worthwhile.
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Halijaro wrote:
Aviator, I hope you enjoy the new exhaust. I know I do. It's a great piece of kit and I'm sure all of this will have been worthwhile.
Thanks.

Was no big deal. I responded that I was not willing to provide the materials requested, offered another solution, and Robert's your mother's sibling.

Just found the request over the top, and said so. Apparently they either agreed or wanted the sale.
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Aviator47 wrote:
the issuing bank eats it.
By eating it, you mean pass the loss to the insurer, who 'buys' the debt for pennies on the dollar and continues to attempt collection on the debt, then yes, they eat it.
Aviator47 wrote:
The issuing banks do not set the rates charged to the merchant, the Card Clearing Organization and processing banks (services) do.
No, but they are complicit in the security policies, and the so called PCI Compliance process, that extorts greater fees. The 'layers' exist to protect the banks from legal exposure, but to say they have no say in the process is a bit of a reach
Aviator47 wrote:
Fees paid by merchants to their card processor are included in the cost of business, just like utilities and toilet paper. If you want to be a web based retailer, you pay the fees associated with that, and include processing fees before you establish "margin", as it's a variable cost and should be figured in the cost of goods sold, just like you include the cost of goods being delivered to your premises, as well as a "budgeted" allowance for losses, such as fraud and damages to inventory. The cost, if the merchant has any business sense, is passed on to the customer in the final price. I encourage merchants to be fraud conscious, as it helps keep the price down.
Sure, but would it offend you to be charged 3% more on your invoice because you paid with Credit Card rather than cash? I don't know about the rest of the world, but in many states in the US, it is illegal to charge a different price passed upon method of payment. Why is that? because the CC companies lobbied like mad to make it so, because it made the use of the CC less attractive to the consumer.
Aviator47 wrote:
I know the risk faced by merchants for accepting a fraudulent transaction. My point from the very beginning was that the method of "verifying" my authority to use the given card was out of line. If the merchant is not paying for billing address verification (a very simple and automatic procedure in web based card processing software), not my problem. As I informed the rep, my issuing bank (which is not a processing bank) has customer service reps available, at no additional cost to the merchant, that can be contacted. For my benefit, not just "security theater".
I agree, they stepped over the line and I would, under no circumstances have provided that information, especially not via email. I am very much on your side. Your own statement above though echoes exactly my point. We are asking the retailers to bear the burden of costs for fighting Credit Card fraud, while the issuers, clearing houses and banks sit back and reap the rewards, all while having the tools to put in place truly effective means of fraud prevention and choosing not too because the current model is far more profitable to them than fixing it.
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dru_

Yes, the issuing bank can sell bad paper for pennies on the dollar, which is still a loss of $.90 on the dollar.

A merchant can purchase fraud insurance:
Quote:
BankCard Central provides qualified merchants' access to charge back insurance protection against cardholder fraud on Card-not-Present credit card transactions when:

A Lost or Stolen Credit Card - is used before the card owner detects it is missing;
Card Generators or Counterfeit Plastic Cards - with fraudulent credit card numbers generated using software programs.
Identity Fraud -- the identity of a card holder is stolen and assumed by thieves.
Post-Purchase "Ship To" Changes -- After a valid transaction has been made by the real card owner, thieves use the site's customer service screens to gain information necessary to "assume the identity of the order owner" and request a change in "ship to," having the goods delivered to an alternate address of their choosing.

The Merchant will be reimbursed for the cost of the stolen product or services, the loss of profit, and the charge back processing cost. The policy covers only losses on credit card transactions processed through BankCard Central and VerePay when its fraud detection software and risk management systems are used by the merchant.
10 states prohibit "check-out fees" (charging extra for credit card usage). The merchant contracts for MasterCard and Visa prohibit "check-out fees", and the card holders can contest them. No laws prohibit offering "cash discounts" for cash in lieu of card. Federal law (15 USC § 1666f) prohibits credit card issuers from prohibiting the offering of "cash discounts" in their merchant contracts. "Check-out fees" were hyped by accountants as a way of avoiding sales taxes, as such fees are rung up separately. The law specifically allows a merchant to offer a lower "cash Price" versus a "Card Price", but is must be called a "cash discount", that's all. It's a non-issue in the US, and a non-issue for web commerce to begin with, since it's hard to send cash by Internet. If a merchant does not offer a discount for paying cash, it's simply because the merchant chooses not to.

I am no big fan of big banks, but credit cards have become the consumer's preferred way of doing business. There are costs involved in issuing, clearing and processing credit card charges. Before we had the merchant's costs of credit cards, we faced bounced checks (100% loss), counterfeit bills (100% loss), defaults on "in-house" credit accounts (100% loss) and the significant costs of running an "in-house" account system, not to mention the wait on receivables. Further, offering "in-house credit" was not economically feasible for most smaller retail stores.

It's a cost of doing business, passed on to the consumer, just like toilet paper for the employee bathroom, employee theft or shoplifting loss.
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UTC quote
Aviator47 wrote:
What is more annoying is that they have processed the card
Would the difference between credit card origination and postal address not be flagged up until it was processed though?

Whether the requested information is unreasonable or not I'd say fair play to them for flagging up an indescretion and making further enquiries.
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UTC quote
cazshie wrote:
Aviator47 wrote:
What is more annoying is that they have processed the card
Would the difference between credit card origination and postal address not be flagged up until it was processed though?

Whether the requested information is unreasonable or not I'd say fair play to them for flagging up an indescretion and making further enquiries.
If they use normal billing address checking confirmation in their payment processing software, there would be a match as part of the processing itself. No match, no process completion, and an alarm is triggered to the bank as well. In the case of my bank, a message and/or phone call to me would have been made.

While the bank is in the US, they show my billing (and legal) address in Greece, as I entered it, so that should not be the issue.

Shipping address was same as billing address, further reducing the potential for fraud.

They subscribe to MasterCard SecureCode, which transfers me to MasterCard's web site to enter a password to continue. Further reducing the potential for fraud.

Since the original rep who requested the additional info plead inexperience when I challenged it, that may have been the problem. I doubt the card processing software would have flagged it, especially when MasterCard passed it on three counts, and posted the charge to my account without further ado.

Whatever the 'reason", there are far less intrusive and more definitive methods of confirming the validity of a card. As Patrick noted, getting a scan of a passport and credit card is quite easy if you work in a hotel, for example.
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AKP wrote:
boney wrote:
AKP wrote:
Aviator47 wrote:
AKP wrote:
Im sorry, but I think that request is perfectly reasonable given that you have a card registered in the US and you're ordering parts to Greece.

Just get over yourself and be happy that people have measures such as this in place.

It's not really *that* big of a deal is it?
Send me a scan of your passport, and I'll answer you.

The card is on a US bank that specializes in overseas customers (A military cooperative) and is "registered" to the same address to which the goods are to be shipped.
I think you know exactly what I'm getting at.

It's a reputable company you're buying with, so I'm confident your concerns are not based on security. So I can only surmise you're taking some kind of stand over principle.

I've had to do this before by the way, in a similar position as yourself.

You have to look at it from their point of view. Whilst they probably don't think you're some scam artist, a business has to show and demonstrate that they take reasonable steps in order to discourage scam artists.

Having had to deal with chargebacks from banks before, and having to investigate various different types of scams I would have loved to have proved that as part of process we took steps like this to minimize the risk to the company and individuals.
Perhaps in England you're used to having Big Brother looking over your shoulder, or feel comfortable sharing private information with others but us 'Mericuns! here in the colonies DO NOT SHARE that kind of information. There is no negotiation, no discussion, no "reputable company" nonsense. Neither you, nor any other person or company is going to get a copy of my passport. I might let you *look* at it, and you can certainly write down the number if it is required (like booking a hotel room) but that's as far as you go. There are plenty of businesses who understand the ideal of privacy from whom the same products can be purchased.
Sigh, with the greatest of respect boney thats a very archaic and elitist view of how people should conduct themselves.

But hey, it's fine. There are two things people can do in this situation, they can be reasonable and understand why this information is requested, or they can tell themselves 'how dare' they request this information, not oblige and not get their goods delivered.

We all have a choice at the end of the day. You cannot deny the logic I've put forward, logically, given the circumstances it makes sense to carry out these checks.

With regards to your comments in terms of 'Big Brother', I hear this every time this sort of conversation arises. Hell, this 'Big Brother' mentality that you have referred to produced less crime, less fraud, a better education, safer towns and cities and generally better quality of life compared side to side with the US.

Sorry mate, but seriously, some people need to get over themselves.
With the greatest respect, we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. ( I can't believe I used two cliches in one sentence.) I enjoy a great amount of privacy living where I do, and while our style of government comes with some drawbacks, it comes with a great deal of benefits as well. While your governmental model may condition you to be used to sharing the most personal of information with strangers making what I would consider an outrageous request, ours does not. And I will not. Nor would most people here.

It is not "archaic." Individual rights to privacy are spelled out in pretty much those few words in the founding documents of our country. Considering how much younger our governmental model is to yours, some might suggest it's actually "progressive."


Hey Aviator, glad you got the pipe.
⬆️    About 2 months elapsed    ⬇️
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UTC quote
Sorry to revive the thread... but I wanted to share my experience.

I just placed an order on Sunday (6/17) evening for a Dr Pulley HiT clutch. Unfortunately these are extremely difficult to source here in the U.S the only options are to buy it from S.I.P, or Union Material (Company that actually makes Dr Pulley products) directly in Taiwan. All the resellers for them here have to order them in so might as well cut out the middleman and order it directly. So I placed an order with S.I.P.

I have never ordered anything from overseas and was a tad concerned. I made sure to use an "isolated" credit card of mine which is only used for online orders to limit the amount of risk. So on Sunday at around 9pm PST I placed the order. On Monday I got an email confirming the order was being processed or more specifically that is was being pulled. Tuesday I got another update saying a FedEx ship notification was placed on it. On Wednesday I got an email with the tracking information and confirmed it on FedEx's website.
As I last checked it is currently "in transit" in Cologne, Germany. Est. Delivery is on Wednesday (6/27)

I never got any emails about verifying any information, or anything. My entire experience was as though I was buying something online on Amazon or any other e-commerce site. If my item arrives on time, and is as expected I anticipate I will be buying a lot more stuff from them... even the shipping was relatively cheap.
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I think that what they were asking of Aviator was dumb... but I've generally had very good service... some important details are left out of item descriptions on some items, but as far as credt card orders go it's good (MY experiences) I've had a mishap with a phone order... something got "lost in translation" (not hard to believe w/ the "lingo" I sometimes deliver), but they've always taken care of me...
I've for the most part lately, placed my orders through TravisNJ... it's a savings on shipping... neat, clean and fast.
One look at the catalog will tell you they're pretty buttoned up. 8)
Cheers
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Aviator47 wrote:
A vendor can verify billing address of a credit card through the issuer. That's why most on line sites stress that the billing address you give when making a purchase must match the billing address for the card.
I haven't read beyond this yet, but we do this many times daily at work. We even stress if there's a middle initial or suffix on the card to provide it. If it all matches exactly, the order will process automatically. If there is any tiny discrepancy, we have to call the bank to verify. This could be a middle initial, apartment number, or telephone number. Once a customer has been verified, any subsequent orders with that card and address will be released.

In short, a request for a copy of your passport, as stated, is truly ridiculous. If we have doubts regarding an order, and are for whatever reason unable to verify with the bank, we advise the customer to call the bank to update their information if needed, or cancel the order.
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Apparently there are systems in place for security prevention.

Automatic alerts are built into the software system when addresses don't match, these then trigger a higher level of security, and clarification is sought.


It would appear you didn't follow the instructions as written. It's all in the manual! Clown emoticon

Ps
I have been a victim of credit card fraud, to the tune of around £3000. Every little detail of all my cards security request's were met. A programme on Tv later showed you can buy a person's credit card numbers, pin, address, clicksafe, you name it, on line! Including my birthday, no idea how they got that!

The poster, who wrote the credit card companies don't care, was right. They just cleared the debt from my card, and basically shrugged their shoulders.

I also know the other side of the coin; I would imagine anything that go's to Greece is going to be looked at very carefully. Especially if card billing, delivery address doesn't match.

The shop does sometimes lose out, as the card company refuse's to pay due to shop negligence.

There is no law which say's a shop has to sell to you.
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Try reading the thread.

Instructions followed 100%. Addresses matched 100%. Secondary security system (SecureCode) worked like a champ, as correct code was entered. The bank approved the charge.

Intervention by clerk was manual, not automatic. He questioned someone in Europe having an account with a US based bank. Problem was a clerk who chose not to follow the company's published instructions.

I heard that the next week he also burned out the CDI in his scooter by using the wrong plug.
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ha ha that was quick..

I forgot Americans dont understand brit humour,

Dont go on about everything matching, thats what e-fraud is all about. My card was hammered, 3 seperate transactions all for £1000, all details matched, including my banks secondary measure "clicksafe".

Online I always use a bogus birthday, (fed up of marketing, why help them), but the fraudsters had my real one. The bank is the only company online who has that!!

My daughter works in IT, legal software applications, fraud was one of her teams projects. The things she told me, you could only come to the conclusion that e-theft happens all the time, and is very easy.

On a serious note, you should be more understanding regarding SIP's position and that of the banks.

You were an unusual customer, hence the countermeasure, as a greek resident, maybe if you used a Greek bank then maybe all would have been well.

Ive had my transaction stopped because I was in a different part of the UK, the banks shopping pattern software, decided it wasn't me! (bloody kids)
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britda-

Being Cambridge educated, I'm no stranger to Brit humor, which I exercised myself in return.

I have no issue with a firm employing security measures. We have had four credit cards compromised over the years, the most extravagant to the tune of $13,000, by a ring buying customer and card info from an employee at a major car rental company's office at Newark airport.

However, asking me to e-mail (one of the least secure forms of e-transactions) copies of two documents that would be quite helpful to an identity thief was not my cup of tea. They backed down and shipped the goods almost immediately after I took issue with the request. I have no idea if they contacted the bank (a local call in Germany) or accepted the several verification steps included in the original placement of the order, nor do I care.

Should I decide to purchase from them again, it will be with the same credit card and in the same fashion. If they wish to challenge it again, that's their prerogative. It's the cost of their employee hours involved, not mine. If they ask for scans of a passport and the actual credit card, I have my response to the first attempt to simply copy and paste.
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Aviator47 wrote:
Should I decide to purchase from them again, it will be with the same credit card and in the same fashion.
Quite frankly, you are being obstructive. I would suggest its customers such as yourself which thwart e-commerce, lower customer satisfaction, and at the same time increase retailer's expense and frustration. In short, undermining the benefits of online retail for EVERYBODY.

It's indicative of your persona that you actually feel grounds for complaint, within a public open platform. Your intentions can be only for mischief.

I sincerely hope, in future SIP block you as a buyer.

We all understand online fraud, and are all responsible to help stop it.

I have purchased item's from all over the EU and America on line, with no issue. But then I understand the e-system of commerce/payment, and as an individual, I dont expect to be treated as a special case.
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britda-

As usual, you are argumentative for the sake of being so, and not addressing the issue under discussion - the request for documents that are in excess of industry standard practice.

If you had read the original and subsequent posts, my objection is to the documents requested, via a less than secure means, to "verify" my identity. Has nothing to do with "spoiling" e-commerce, or objecting to industry standard verification practices, but protecting my identity documents.

If a vendor cannot accept a transaction using industry standard on-line address and SecureCode verification, they can, at no expense, call the issuing bank - another industry standard practice. If that is insufficient or too much of a bother, then that's their problem, not mine. I also, regularly and routinely, make on-line purchases from vendors on more than one continent. One, and only one has ever requested an image of my passport and credit card, a request to which, for personal security reasons, I will not accept.

If the credit card I choose to use is unacceptable to a vendor, so be it. I am not going to change my banking practices to satisfy one out of the many, many vendors I do business with.

Again, the vendor shipped without further question when I objected to the documents requested. Did that pose a threat to the entire world of e-commerce? Did that cause "mischief"? Was the "customer satisfaction" of anyone else reduced as a result of my transaction? I seriously doubt it.

However, my post did put that questionable practice out for others to consider and be aware of before the fact. If you are happy scanning your passport and credit card and emailing it to a business, then that's your choice. I choose otherwise, as do several others responding on this thread.

Claiming to be so knowledgeable as to be able to identify the nature of my intentions is pure horse-puckey.
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UTC quote
As much as I don't want to be the gooseberry jam in this Britda/Aviator 47 love sandwich it got me thinking about how we have all this technology yet we don't seem to use it.

Most people have Skype, well if you shop online you have some degree of web savvy, why not ask to call the shop (on skype), webcam on, say hello, hold up the card you are using, passport if necessary, smile and job done. Has to be better than triple authentication and all that nonsense.

But then some people might object to having to show their face. Because you don't do that every time you buy something in a shop.....
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And again you miss the point,

Why put yourself, in that position. The cure is in your hands, Greek address, Greek credit card, and Greek bank. It's not that hard to manage money.

But no, why should you, you don't want to conform to what, by me and others, is simple best practice. You would rather complain and whinge about it.

As I said persona.

The passport/credit card is a secondery arguement, the primary issue was you.

If you had done the norm, that is the above, would there have been a problem? No of course not.

You caused the problem, and you are quite happy, even in the knowledge of that problem to do it again. Your quote.
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