Modern Vespa

I have been commuting on my scooter (Vespa GT125) for almost a year now and have had two incidents where I have ended putting the scooter down on it's side (ironically not on the same one).

1) Car park at B&Q (don't laugh) where I was filtering on the outside a queue of cars to get to the motorcycle bays near the store entrance when a car parked on the right started reversing out.

2) 3 lanes at the lights which are red - inside lane is free (2 others full of traffic). I am going up the free lane when I spot the nose of a car starting to stick out (it is turning right) across the 2 lanes of stationary traffic. Admittedly, it was wet and greasy at the time but I ended up wiping out in front of said car that was turning.

On both occasions I get the impression I could have avoided the situation by greater anticipation / driving around it / reducing speed in a controlled manner / or the other car would have spotted me and stopped. However, I am overreacting and grabbing the front brake which causes the front of the bike to skid and me to hit the deck. Only damage done has been so far to my scooter, ego and a badly grazed right knee.

I know people would say better safe than sorry and I have been lucky so far not to have hit another vehicle. But is there anything that I can do to change my first instinct which is to grab at the brakes at the first sight of a potential hazard? Are there any exercises one can do?

Only other thoughts that come to mind are to buy a Piaggio MP3 or get a bike with ABS / combined braking system - when all I really want is a Ducati!!

Any thoughts / insights welcome.

Thanks,
John

There is something you can do to help with "panic" braking...and that's practice practice practice until you change your instincts. That, and go out right now...right this instant...and buy David L. Hough's book Proficient Motorcycling: the Ultimate Guide to Riding Well. He devotes a considerable amount of chapter space to the situations you talk about. His book is an invaluable resource EVERY rider should read, no matter how many years you have under your belt. Read it and practice the in-traffic techniques and hard-braking exercises he lays out. You won't regret it.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9781889540535&itm=2[/u]

Welcome to the site John!

Definitely you should consider taking an MSF motorcycle course, they would go over how to react in situations like those you encountered, and possibly how to avoid them altogether.

I have been saving for a Ducati myself (I like the S2R Red with the white stripe, 800cc...) and it's definitely better to be working out those kinks in you riding before you get it!

That said, is not possible to avoid ALL crashes. As you'll read on the forum, even very experienced riders have crashed, it's all about how mentally ready you are when (not if) it happens, and the quality of your safety gear (helmet above all, then gloves, jacket and pants, etc...).

Have fun and be safe!

Have you taken MSF or equivalent course in your area? Have you read and practiced from David Houghs "Proficient Motorcycling" books?

That's where I'd start.

David Houghs book(s), MSF Safe Riding Course, and PRACTICE.

Presuming the reference to B&Q means the rider is in the UK, then a full day's training is compulsory before riding any bike on the road.

I would say four things however (all of which are covered in the CBT) -

1) Did you fully close the throttle before braking? Failing to do this is a recipe for loss of control in emergency situations.

2) Do you cover the brakes? If so then braking in emergency situations can be less controlled, locking wheels is more common, and 1) above is almost inevitable. Hold the bars, and brake appropriately after closing the throttle.

3) In damp conditions you should not brake heavily with the front brake, even in emergency braking. By increasing braking gently you can ease off the brake gently as soon as the wheel start to slide allowing you to recover. If you just jab on the brakes the wheels will lock and there is nothing you can do about it.

4) Always expect every other vehicle etc to do something dangerous. Assume all those parked cars will pull out as you approach, assume a car will cut across in front of you at the lights, assume a pedestrian will step out from behind that bus, and a cyclist will come through that red light. If you ride as if all these things will happen, you will be riding slower, you will be giving yourself more space and time, and you will find that you almost never have to make panic reaction as you ave positioned yourself and prepared for everything that might happen.

And then get More Proficient Motorcycling by David Hough.

my rider coach told me during MSF course that emergency braking is like squeezing an orange to make orange juice- if you just squeeze as the orange as hard as you can the juice will squirt everywhere, but a good steady squeeze will get all the juice in the cup (i.e. the result you are looking for)

Thanks for the tips - sound advice. And yes, I completed my CBT which is compulsory for anyone to ride a scooter over 50cc.

Regarding your point 2) am I reading it correctly that you recommend one shouldn't cover the brakes (particularly the fronts) as it contributes to poor braking technique?

Thanks,
John

"crash"

that should be my name...only I can put my scooter on it's side w/o
even moving....like when I parked my scoot on asphalt on a hot summer day.

or when a friend dumped it after driving it 10 feet.

do the ABS brakes really work on a scooter?


Scott

Yes. On your CBT (even 50cc riders have to do this if they do not have a car license, got their car licence after 2000, or are aged 16) they should have corrected you if you were riding with the brakes covered. On mine they specifically warned against it.

Covering the brakes would fail you your full bike test on the grounds that you were not in full control of the machine.

Actually, David Hough in Proficient Motorcycling suggests that you SHOULD cover your brakes in stickier situations like busy intersections, multi-car turning lanes and packed parking lots. Getting on your brakes early in those situations shaves off the time it takes you to react and get your hand on the front brake, which ultimately can save you ten or more feet in a hard braking situation.

To quote page 87-88 in chapter 3:
"Brake early. When you approach a hazardous situation such as a busy intersection, get on the front brake to reduce both reaction time and stopping distance before you are faced with an impending collision. All of us require a half-second or more to make the decision to brake and another half-second if we have to reach for the lever. Reaction time can eat up a lot more distance than you might think. At 40 mph, you are covering almost 30 feet every half second. And even if you are quick enough to reach for the brakes in only a half-second, it takes at least another half-second of progressive squeezing to get the front end loaded before you can get full on the brake. One wasted second at 40 mph eats up about 60 feet of critical road space-just about the same distance it takes to brake to a stop from that speed. If you are already on the front brake, brake lightly to get the discs heated up and transfer a little weight onto the front tire, it shouldn't take more than a half-second to squeeze harder and initiate a maximum effort stop. Getting on the brakes early can make the difference between stopping 5 feet short of the car fender or bashing into it at 30 mph."

What everyone else here is saying: Get the Proficient Motorcycling book and read it, learn it, live it.
Then get the More Proficient Motorcycling book and repeat.
Take the MSF course right away. They will show you how to get the big picture when riding. Don't ever, ever assume that's going to happen.
You're definitely putting your life in the hands of that other driver, and a lot of times, they just won't see you.

Ride safe and happy.

All excellent advice thus far. I just wanted to re-iterate the value of proper training and experience and practice, practice, practice. Find an empty car-park (a big one) and practice your techniques. This can pay big dividends when you get into a bad situation.....

When I did my CBT, the instructor also told me that covering the brakes was the wrong thing to do.

He said that riding a scooter is not like riding a bicycle - you do not use the brakes in the same way. Covering the front brake and using the throttle at the same time can contribute to the front wheel locking, while the back end swings out and you are on the floor. This is so easy to do that I suggest to anyone who wants to lay out a bike, I would open the throttle start a figure of eight and then grab the front brake on the first turn.

If you don't have appropriate speed as well as braking, covering the brakes can lead to you losing control, not gaining it. This is particularly true if you are taking a corner, or avoiding an obstacle. Brake covering is a no no because in an emergency you often don't make a conscious decision to brake, you just grab the brakes. If you don't cover them, then you should take account of what's going on around you, reduce speed and then brake as necesary.

Speed is an essential factor in control of your machine, so you should use the throttle to control speed, rather than using the brakes as the only method to slow down. In urban riding it is very easy to ram the throttle then squeal off into the distance and then slap the brakes on to stop. I don't think this is great riding but it seems exciting to some!

In the UK, you could try reading the excellent "Police Riders Handbook To Better Motorcycling" which is standard issue for police bikers and can be bought from Amazon. I can really recommend it. It has improved my cornering, observation, positioning understanding of the road. I've also got a lot more fun out the Vespa!

I'm not sure why anyone would say you are not in control if you are just more prepared to apply the brakes quickly by having your hand in position.

I've read many places, specifically in the training material for my motorcycle endorsement test that "To reduce your reaction time you should cover the clutch and brake." The reiterate it several times through out the manual also. I think its important to cover both brakes so you can apply them together, or at very least start applying the front brake (as breturi7 pointed out) then apply both. I don't covering the brakes is an excuse to not thinking before you applying them, it is just a way to cut down the reaction time to applying them when needed.

You could think of it as if there is a built in pause in your brake system, you would want to remove that when it matters so you don't end up taking longer to brake and hitting something or someone. If you are driving down an open road with nothing unpredictable around you (or a similar less critical situation), then it isn't as important and you should have more time to brake when needed.

Unless by "covering the brakes" you mean actually riding with them engaged, but that seems like a rather big difference in the use of a term, and an obvious no-no.

Amazon doesn't have 'Police Riders Handbook To Better Motorcycling' listed. Is there another name for it?

There is Bwyn, my apologies.

It is called "Motorcycle Roadcraft - The Police Rider's Handbook To Better Motorcycling".

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Motorcycle-Roadcraft-Police-Riders-Handbook/dp/011341143X

A good read and I consult it often!

While I understand the logic of this, and can see how jamming on the brakes while throttling isn't such a great idea, I think most of us are referring to covering the brakes only while riding in dense traffic situations (parking lots, busy intersections) at speeds of 30 mph (48 kph) or less...not while zooming down the interstate at 65 miles an hour (104 kph). I agree, using the throttle as a speed regulator is important, and in no way am I suggesting that one should apply the brakes while throttling, but in heavy traffic situations, I still think it's a good idea to have your fingers on the lever prepared for a hard brake in case the situation arises suddenly...

To quote a specific line from above "Brake covering is a no no because in an emergency you often don't make a conscious decision to brake, you just grab the brakes."

Actually, the REAL no no in this situation isn't the "brake covering" but rather the unconscious reaction (or rather, the habit) of grabbing the brakes. If you practice proper braking techniques enough (I love ariw22's suggestions about squeezing an orange), especially proper hard braking techniques, over time you can replace bad habits with good ones (even unconscious ones). It's all about practice, people.

As for the Police Riders handbook, I'm sure it's a great read and I'll definitely have to check it out, but I think people should also be aware that according to some veterans, police are still being taught improper procedures...at least here in the states. (For instance, many are taught to lay down their bikes in certain situations where proper hard braking techniques would undoubtedly work better. Brake pads offer a lot more stopping friction than skidding metal and plastic.)

I think you have the key to your situation as you said above. You would be wise to take another round of riding lessons from a private school and not just what is required for licensing.

Not to put down any of the books listed above as I know the authors are truely skilled riders and writers and the information given is invaluable, but learning from a professional is far superior than trying to use skills learned from reading. Learn to bake a cake or make a chair from a book, learn to keep yourself safe and alive from a professional.

Dave

There an old saying, if you think you are going to go left, you will end up going left. So think positive and look in the direction that you want to go.
( this even works in golf)

My advise would be to change your Moniker from Crash to something a little more positive. It may sound cool. Its one you don't want to be known for.

I think the covering/not covering your brakes is one of those subjects that can bring out the same reactions as the helmet/no helmet debates. (I'm actually sorry I even mentioned it here ) People, for the best or reasons, can become entrenched on one side or the other of the issue.

I think it is best not to be too dogmatic about it. It doesn't have to be an either/or decision.

Generally, I don't cover the breaks if all looks free and clear and I am just gliding down the road. I have hit potholes and sometimes a change in the level of the road that jerk the handlebars hard, and I just don't feel that I have as good a grip when I am covering the breaks.

On the other hand, when I am in situations where there is a lot of traffic, stops, turns, lights or when I believe sudden or frequent braking is likely, I cover the brakes.

Good judgment is everything.

Well, from what I understand, the books being discussed were written by professionals with years of great experience. Nothing can replace hands on experience and teaching from someone that knows what they are doing, but reinforcing or expanding what you know by reading what a professional has written will help a great deal. There is a key to learning: hearing it, reading it, writing it, doing it... if you can do as many of those as possible you will be better off.

It is pretty pointless advising a UK rider who is a learner and has to pass the full pursuit test within to years or give up riding to ignore the standards of riding needed to pass the test.

As it happens I know two people who did their CBT but never completed it - both crashed the bike on the slow figure of eight done before you are even allowed on the road precisely because they applied the brakes and the throttle at the same time at low speed. At low speed braking with the throttle open is especially dangerous. At speed the bike will just not stop, at lower speeds the front will lock much easier and the spinning rear wheel will step out.

As someone who's ridden for many years I was always puzzled by the MSF's insistence on not covering the brakes. (Apparently shared by the UK equivalent also.) When my wife was taking the MSF basic course I asked one of the instructors about that, and he said that for novice riders, the MSF felt the tendency to overbrake was very high, so the added delay in finding the brake was better than locking them up.

Personally I always ride with two fingers covering the front brake, and on the scooter I also cover the rear with two fingers. (Compared to a Ducati, the GTS front brakes are, well... flabby.) The only time I don't use the front brakes is if traction is iffy (gravel, wet leaves, etc.).

In addition to the Hough books recommended, there is a smaller one called Street Strategies that focuses less on technique and more on common situations that can be dangerous.

I totally agree. Riding experience and practice are everything, but why limit yourself to just the physical ride? I think every moto/scooter rider owes it to herself or himself to not just know how to ride, but know the proper way to ride. Courses can teach you a great deal, but reading as much as you can from veteran riders will help you get to the nitty gritty that even the most extensive rider courses can gloss over. In fact, much of the Motorcycle Safety Courses are based on the exercises and techniques written about by veteran riders such as David Hough. The advice might not help with the test, or may be contrary to what the administrators are looking for, but I think this it will be greatly relevant and applicable to everyday riding, the place where good habits and great skills truly count. Again, no one has suggested using both the brake and throttle at the same time to avoid a crash. Just because you are covering the brakes does not mean you are using them. It simply means that you are prepared to let off the throttle instantly and squeeze gently on the brakes if the situation arises. Those two riders didn't fall in the figure 8 because they were covering the brakes, but because they were in the bad habit of hitting the brakes while still twisting the throttle.

Something else comes to mind...

I remember my MSF coach warning against covering the brakes with a couple of fingers and leaving the rest on the grips. He said that you could (especially if you are wearing gloves) risk pinching your fingers between the levers and the grips during a quick hard braking action if you are not mindful.

It happened to me. I had to apply much more pressure than I had anticipated due to a surprise circumstance. It didn't hurt my fingers much, but it did limit the travel of the lever and I wasn't able to apply the brakes as much as I needed to.

I stopped in time, but it was a wet pants, cold sweat moment for me.

Once again, I'm not trying to debate the subject, just adding thoughts to it. 8)

What I learned and was told, 'don't use your front brake while doing slow speed turns such as one does in the city and in parking lots'. If you front brake in a slow speed turn , you'll go down. I did - twice - when I was learning. The best way to avoid this is to not cover your front brake. If you're going to use your front brake, make sure your wheels are straight.

Actually, you aren't supposed to use any brakes, front or rear, during any kind of turn at all. If you have to use brake it means your speed into the entry of the turn was too much to begin with. Every biker should get a tattoo on their hands (or some other appropriate place) that says: S.L.L.R.
S - Slow before the turn to entry speed.
L - Look through the turn.
L - Lean into your turn, (countersteering).
R - Roll on the throttle to accelerate through the turn.

While this might not apply so much at slower speeds (mainly the leaning / counter-steering portion of the equation), one should still be accelerating through turns, not brake...that will only eat up much needed traction and will quite easily help your bike meet the pavement.

Yeah, I agree with your point about brake covering and the unconscious reaction to grab. As you say, it is the habit of brake grab that is the problem. I think it can be unlearnt, but for novices then brake covering can be habit of nerves that leads to less control, not more.

Generally I ride into Central London every day and learnt quickly that even in urban situations it is better in many situations to choose and vary your appropriate speed by the throttle, not your brakes. The rider is forced to think about your speed and I think you are a better rider when you do that.

If anyone does this brake grab often, it may be that you are going too fast for where you are and not observing all road hazards early on. Accidents develop, rather than suddenly "happen". Brake grabbing happens at the last second. That is to be contrasted with careful braking before you hit a busy junction or dense traffic which is sensible and good practice.

It is only an opinion, and if anyone wants to cover the brakes in certain situations it is cool with me, but brake covering as a matter of rule shouldn't be a substitute for other methods of control of the bike. Improve those, you'll cover the brakes less often, IMHO.

the fact that you are trying to improve your skills is a great sign

Get good basic training and PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE.

Not only in general riding situations, but go to a vacant store parking lot on an early weekend morning and PRACTICE, twists, turns, emergency stops and the whole ball of wax. It really pays off!